LotR - not much of a war?

[The Sigil]

Sweet!

(from memory, will be wrong) Oh Supreme Being of whatever gender or member of the animal or vegetable or mineral kingdom, who once did something great, and is now somewhere we are not, we ask you to help us to do whatever it is you deem as good and avoid whatever it is that you think is bad, unless you don't interfere in the lives of men. Grant us whatever it is you tend to grant, or save our souls, or help us reach enlightenment, or damn us randomly.

Amen.

--The Sigil

(Nice to see a Frantics reference )

 

[Umbran]

The invasion of Rohan, and the battle of Helm's Deep, is the first major military action? Less than 3,000 men routed 10,000 orcs of Saruman. A few dozen ents destroy Saruman's "industrial war machine". Doesn't look like Saruman's forces are really all that powerful. All his forces successfully do is pillage some minor villages.

[...snip...]

Am I missing something?

Perhaps you're missing a couple of things.

The lands of Middle Earth are sparsely populated. Sure, in the modern world you can't travel using the generally accepted methods (car or airplane) for more than a day without hitting a population center with millions of people. In Tolkien's world, you can travel days without seeing a single person in some regions.

Next, our ideas of what constitutes a "big" army are based upon our current modes of warfare. We have technology increasing our efficiency. We can put 100,000 men in the field, and not really be stretching. Try doing that without internal combustion engines, and it becomes a different story. The size of your army is limited by the way you feed them.

So, what counts as "big" is relative. In Tolkein's world, no army is large by today's Earthly standards. But Tolkien's world isn't carrying a population of over six billion souls, either. It simply takes less to be a threat when there are fewer people around.

[edit - one other thing to consider - WWII really didn't cover much of the land surface of the Earth. Sure, lots of people were economically affected, but in a great many senses, most of the planet was physically untouched. But we call it a "world war"]

 

[Brown Jenkin]

Re: Re: LotR - not much of a war?

Next, our ideas of what constitutes a "big" army are based upon our current modes of warfare. We have technology increasing our efficiency. We can put 100,000 men in the field, and not really be stretching. Try doing that without internal combustion engines, and it becomes a different story. The size of your army is limited by the way you feed them.

You can but it is much more dificult. Napoleon took 100,000+ on his drive to Russia. But you are partialy correct. The first major military fieldings were under Louis XVI (The Sun King) who brought modern military concepts to Europe. And yes, without an internal combustion engine and a large national buraucracy it is dificult to field such armies, and even harder to feed them. The large armies of the Enlightenment were like a swarm of locusts, scrounging along thier path.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Hmmm ...

Everyone is thinking in terms of human soldiers, and what human soldiers can and cannot do.

In Middle Earth, even the wood-elves could easily march 40 to 60 miles per day, without breaking a sweat.
If required, they could run 24 hours a day, for days on end, covering over 100 miles a day.

(The reason Legolas did not catch the Uruk-Hai carrying Merry and Pippin is because he was limited by the endurance of Aragorn and Gimli.)

The Noldor were of greater stature, and could travel even farther distances than the Wood Elves.

The Orcs (including the Uruk-Hai) could travel just as swiftly as the wood-elves.
Even loaded down with heavy armor and heavy weapons, the Orcs could - and did - cover astonishing distances on foot.

Thus, if Sauron had really wanted to, he could have sent out an Orc-Host from Mordor, and it could have reached the Shire in a matter of days.
Likewise, the elves of Linden (the region west of the Shire) and Rivendell, could have reached Mordor within a few days of running.

In modern terms, if I had an army of orcs in Adrian, Michigan, and I wanted them in Lexington, Kentucky, I could have them there in 3 days.
If I wanted them in Atlanta, Georgia, I could have them there in 7 days.
If I wanted them to travel all the way to Orlando, Florida, I could have them there in 12 days.

This changes the military map considerably.

Consider the Napoleon Example above.
Most of Napoleon's Army perished in the Russian Winter, or of hunger, or from the Russian Army, and never made it home.
Had Napoleon had an army of elves, or orcs, they could have returned from Moscow to Warsaw in only about 10 days at the most, and to France in another 5 days, at the most.

Elves carry lembas. It is light foodstuff, and does not encumber the person carrying even weeks worth of the stuff (Napoleon's soldiers, on the other hand, were laden down with food which would run out all too quickly.)
Orcs eat ... well, I think we all know what orcs will eat. As for what they CAN eat ... anything but outright poison will do. (Of course, orcs do not have the prohibitions against cannabalism that civilized modern man has ... at least, I hope that civilized modern man has.)

The Morgul Host could have reached Minas Tirith in one day, after setting forth.
However, they faced an enemy host, Faramir's Army, and had to win the Passages of Anduin.
Afterwards, they had to assault the Causeway Forts, heavily defended by Faramir and supported by Gandalf the White.
So, their relative slowness may be excused.

The swift arrival of the elves, from both Rivendell and Lothlorien, to Helm's Deep, is thus explained.
For the elves, it was a run of only a few days. I am assuming also that the elves set out before Saruman's force did (Saruman's force took it's sweet time, burning and destroying assorted crops, villages, and those unlucky enough to be caught in their way, before assailing Helm's Deep. Not to mention they brought Siege Engines that slowed them somewhat.)

So no, the Shire was not safe because it was a long ways from Mordor.
Had Gondor been crushed, Sauron's forces could have been up there to say Hi within days, and doubtless, they would have done just that. Sauron wished a dark revenge against those who had stolen what was his, and dared to hold it against him by force.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

But Sauron and Saruman's armies were not all Urak-Hai. In fact they did not even make up most of the orcs. Most orcs are unable to travel durring the day limiting them to only a 12 hour march. Additionally both armies were made up of at least 1/2 total numbers of humans with all the related slowdowns. Yes both sides had elite troops capable of great speed, but both were limited to the speed of the average troop, on both sides this ment humans.

 

[Umbran]

(The reason Legolas did not catch the Uruk-Hai carrying Merry and Pippin is because he was limited by the endurance of Aragorn and Gimli.)
[...snip...]
The Orcs (including the Uruk-Hai) could travel just as swiftly as the wood-elves.

Um, not to be too terribly nitpicky, but isn't there a bit of a contradiction here. Two halflings do not constitute a burden for a large group of orcs. If the Uruk-hai can travel as fast as a wood elf, then said wood elf could not catch the Uruk-hai.

 

[Daiymo]

I think one thing to keep in mind in all this is not simply the sheer numbers of elves vs. orcs vs. dwarves, etc.. As had been said before, there were great distances betwwen the settlements of the free peoles. They (the free peoples) are seeing and hearing events in piecemeal, and trying to put things in perspective. Even the major pesonalities of ME have a hard time figuring out what's what.

Also,while the war/wargame analogies ans extrapolations are interesting for comparison to say WWII, Sauron's goal isn't to conquer Middle Earth per se. He just wants the One Ring-it isnt necessary for him to go and conquer every land and city. When regains the ring, he regains all his former and complete power, and the conquest and overlordship of the world is a done deal. Although Mordor hammers at Gondor all throughout the Third Age, Sauron's efforts are mostly covert in trying to find the One Ring.

It is not until that Sauron sees Aragorn, the returned king in the palantir of Isengard that he freaks out, and begins an "invasion"proper(of Mirkwood and Lorein and Erebor/Dale). His timetable then gets moved up.

 

[Skade]

I just want to say I am most impressed with the analasys of the war in LoTR. I obviously need to put a few more points in my Knowledge: Tolkien.

 

[Khorod]

Yes, this is cool.

I think the extrapolations assume the ring gets trapped in a deep crack somewhere and cannot be found. The good guys can't destroy it, and Sauron can't get it, making his domination limited to military.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

The Uruk-Hai carrying Merry and Pippin were hampered by the heavy armor and arms they were wearing and carrying.
Thus, Legolas, who was wearing no armor and lightly armed, should have been able to overtake them.
However, Legolas refused to leave his companions, Aragorn and Gimli, behind, and they could not keep up with the Uruk-Hai (and Gimli was heavily armored and armed, which further hampered the situation.)

Legolas could actually run in his sleep. This is expressly stated in the book. If Legolas could do so, so could all of the Wood-Elves.
And if Wood-Elves, the Nandar, could pull this kind of stunt, there is little question as to what the mighty Noldor could accomplish.

I would say Legolas could easily make 100 miles per day, every day for at least a week straight.
Par for the course for Wood Elves.
For the Noldor, much greater distances are probably possible. Maybe 200 miles per day. Or even 300 miles per day.

The Uruk-Hai, capable of running in sunlight, could at the very least equal the Wood Elves (if armed and armored, they could match armed and armored Wood Elves. If lightly armed and unarmored, they could match lightly armed and unarmored Wood Elves.)
The Orcs of Mordor could and did function during the day (witness Grishnakh and Company.) Although the sunlight undoubtedly bothered them, it did not seem to hinder them much.
I'd give the Orcs of Mordor 7/8ths the speed of the Uruk-Hai.
That is, they could match the Uruk-Hai at night, and almost match them during the day.

The Orcs of the Misty Mountains are another matter.
Sunlight impairs them badly. They can run in the sun (as shown in the book) but they are greatly slowed and long term exposure is injurious to them.
I would give them 3/4 of the speed of the Uruk-Hai. That is, they can match the Uruk-Hai at night, and run half as fast during the day.
Over a several day period, their performance would drop to 1/2 that of the Uruk-Hai, as their increasing exhaustion led them to slow down at night, and during the day practically coming to a standstill.

Dwarves and elves both seemed to have the capacity to run at incredible speeds, over short distances.
By incredible, I mean pushing well over 15 miles per hour. Perhaps approaching 20 miles per hour in spurts. (Thorin and Company's flight from the goblins in The Hobbit comes to mind here.)
The In Real Life World Record, by the way, is 21 miles per hour for the 50 Yard Dash.

All Orcs and Uruk-Hai have this same capacity for incredible spurts of speed over short distances (the Orcs of Moria outran Thorin and Company.)
It is implied that elves can slightly outmatch dwarves also, in this regard.

Therefore, if your side is human, hobbit, or dwarvish, and the other side is elvish or orcish, and your side routs, you might as well say your prayers.
You aren't going to get away.
You cannot outrun the elves (or orcs) in a sprint.
You cannot outrun the elves (or orcs) in a long term race.
Elves (and orcs) tend to be tenacious, and have this bad tendency to hunt down their enemy to the last and least.
If you can purloin a horse, you will get away ... maybe. An eagle would be better.

There is one beast in Middle Earth faster than any elf or orc. This is the balrog.
Balrogs are amazingly fast.
How fast? Try Freeway Speeds, or faster (that is, do not try to outrun one in your Middle Earth SUV on the Middle Earth Freeway, for you will lose the race.)
If Gandalf had not stopped the balrog in Moria, it could have been at Caras Galahon within the hour (and then someone would have had to stand up and fight it. Not so good for those people ...)
Indeed, there is some question as to whether even the eagles could outpace that balrog.
An immensely valuable ally for Sauron it would have been, once the War started, had it still been around (and assuming it bothered to answer Sauron's call for help, which is questionable.)

- - -

It should be remembered that sheer prowess in battle was not the final worth of someone in combat in the War of the Ring.
The Noldor had the greatest Stature, and this translated into immense combat capability. A single Noldor was worth dozens of men in combat.
The Sindar and Nandar had the next greatest Stature, and this translated into improved combat capabilities. We see this, to some extent, in Legolas, Haldir, and the Army of Lothlorien.

The Orcs of Mordor were next.
For Sauron put his own power into them. As a Fallen Maia, he put his power into them, giving them greater combat capabilities than they should have had.
(Saruman could not do this for his Uruk-Hai. Saruman was not a Maia on the power and level of Sauron.)

The Dunedain of Gondor, and the Rangers of the North (also Dunedain) were greater in stature also, compared to ordinary fighters. The descendents of Numenor had a remnant of the blessing of the Valar still within them, and could pull off feats others could not (such as taking the road of the Paths of the Dead, and getting away with it. Or surviving in the wilderness for decades on end, as Aragorn boasted about to Sam at the Prancing Pony.)

Dwarves and hobbits comprised the next most combat worthy peoples (although it had atrophied with hobbits.)

Finally, we come to ordinary men, such as the Rohirrim, the non-Dunedain people of Gondor, the Haradrim, the Corsairs of Umbar, the Easterlings, the men of Lake-Town and Dale, the people of Dorwinion, and others.
On about a par with ordinary men were the lesser orcs, the Snaga, such as those found in the Misty Mountains and in other places.

The Ents are a special matter, as are trolls.
Both are quite combat worthy (a point well shown in the films!), but it is heavily due to size and strength, and Stature seems to have a lessened role here.

Trolls were supposedly bred in mockery of Ents, just as orcs were bred in mockery of elves, if you believe one version of Tolkien.