Spoilers Fantastic Four (Spoilers)

[chuckdee]

But that speaks against the theme of isolation: they aren't disconnected to the world, but rather holding it up. They are constantly involved in it, as shown by the montage at the beginning. Just during the events of the movie that we get basically no else speaking to them. It's a weirdly lonely film for that because they barely interact with anyone else, and that feels less like a purposeful choice as much as things being cut.

Being for the entire world makes it hard to section out a space for themselves. And they conquered that challenge at the expense of their relations to anything outside the family. They give you hints of this - the Ed Sullivan... I mean Gilbert it where they talk about always having family dinner together. And how much is concentrated on Johnny being single and available - I don't think he's a playboy at heart in this film. I think he's presented as the world's most eligible bachelor, but he's not really that image. They show that also in what he's actually interested in when they focus on him - the science and space.

The world looks at them as their saviors and their paragons, but they are isolated from it other than as symbols.

As far as the conflicts in the family, other than there being something between Johnny and Ben, the others are there. Reed and Johnny disagree on the way forth, and he wants to concentrate on science more, but Reed barely acknowledges him. Sue and Reed and that whole conversation that they had. They're there- they just don't dwell on them, and for introducing the characters after 3 other abortive attempts, I think that's the right call.

 

[Umbran]

So unless they have analogues on Earth-199999*

Why wouldn't they? We had an entire Loki series showing us how there's analogs for people across universes!

or are being brought along, we probably won't get Ben's and Alicia's relationship.

If there's a block on seeing that relationship, it will be a matter of limited screen time, not fictional logic.

* I refuse to countenance the nonsense that the MCU is 616. 616 is the main comics universe. Stop being stupid, Feige.

I agree. It is blatantly obvious that the movie universe is NOT the same as the comics universe. If you want to steal the number, fine (well, not fine, I think it is kinda rude, but whatever), but then make them change the number of the comics universe.

 

[chuckdee]

I agree. It is blatantly obvious that the movie universe is NOT the same as the comics universe. If you want to steal the number, fine (well, not fine, I think it is kinda rude, but whatever), but then make them change the number of the comics universe.

It was supposed to be in the beginning- that was the whole transmedia thing and the ability to merchandise across every medium. Then they pulled back on it, pulled more properties into the mainstream canon and loosened the ties to the comics. They just didn't change that one label because that would have been confusing IMO.

 

[Justice and Rule]

Being for the entire world makes it hard to section out a space for themselves. And they conquered that challenge at the expense of their relations to anything outside the family. They give you hints of this - the Ed Sullivan... I mean Gilbert it where they talk about always having family dinner together. And how much is concentrated on Johnny being single and available - I don't think he's a playboy at heart in this film. I think he's presented as the world's most eligible bachelor, but he's not really that image. They show that also in what he's actually interested in when they focus on him - the science and space.

The world looks at them as their saviors and their paragons, but they are isolated from it other than as symbols.

I don't think the movie says this at all. They all clearly have relationships outside of the movie: Sue works more broadly with the world is the easiest example, but Johnny clearly does ads and other things. Reed does TV shows. Like, that's not to say they have a deep, intimate connection with everyone, but it's clear that they aren't isolated, and I don't think that is a theme of the movie at all unless we are saying that the movie never resolves this isolation (which it doesn't). It feels more the result of things being cut down than an actual intended choice.

As far as the conflicts in the family, other than there being something between Johnny and Ben, the others are there. Reed and Johnny disagree on the way forth, and he wants to concentrate on science more, but Reed barely acknowledges him. Sue and Reed and that whole conversation that they had. They're there- they just don't dwell on them, and for introducing the characters after 3 other abortive attempts, I think that's the right call.

It's not that they don't dwell on them as much as they really aren't conflicts. There's no real challenging or opposition between the family for most (if not all) of the movie. And that can be fine, but I think when you make a movie that is laser-focused on the first family and little else, it makes for something that feels empty.

 

[Umbran]

It was supposed to be in the beginning- that was the whole transmedia thing and the ability to merchandise across every medium.

Yeah, but that was a dumb idea, for two reasons:

1) The comics universe is moribund with canon. Trying to stay aligned with it all the time would strangle the movies.
2) What works in one media format does not necessarily work in another. You cannot expect to have stories with dozens of installments come out the same as a story that has one installment in the same timespan.

Yes, they've drawn some movie-elements into the comics line canon, but not nearly enough to consider then the literal same universe.

 

[Clint_L]

I agree with Micah, a single movie isn’t ideal for a soap compared to a serialised format.

The movie still has a lot of the plot centre around a married couple dealing with a pregnancy and the birth of their first child, which feels more soap than superhero to me.

I really, really dislike this way of framing story design, as if giving a film emotional stakes, which should be the heart of any good story, makes it “more soap than superhero.”

I think making the story more about a baby than about Galactus is a genius solution that solves the problem of how to make the threat hit home. Superheroes saving the world is /yawn. A family fighting for their baby gets me invested.

 

[chuckdee]

Yeah, but that was a dumb idea, for two reasons:

1) The comics universe is moribund with canon. Trying to stay aligned with it all the time would strangle the movies.
2) What works in one media format does not necessarily work in another. You cannot expect to have stories with dozens of installments come out the same as a story that has one installment in the same timespan.

Yes, they've drawn some movie-elements into the comics line canon, but not nearly enough to consider then the literal same universe.

I don't disagree, and it definitely hampered their television efforts (see Agents of Shield), but it's the reasoning behind it. Disney saw the movies and such as the parent to everything.

 

[chuckdee]

They all clearly have relationships outside of the movie: Sue works more broadly with the world is the easiest example, but Johnny clearly does ads and other things. Reed does TV shows.

All of those things are a part of being the symbol. Look at how it is when they come out. It's a circus every time (Ben to a lesser extent, but he even says he hasn't visited in a while). It's one thing to see people on TV and in ads and other media - but is that really a relationship? A fulfilling one? We've seen from our own celebrities that's not the case. And that's what they were- Celebrities and Personalities - not included on the same level other than by a select few.

 

[Justice and Rule]

I really, really dislike this way of framing story design, as if giving a film emotional stakes, which should be the heart of any good story, makes it “more soap than superhero.”

I think making the story more about a baby than about Galactus is a genius solution that solves the problem of how to make the threat hit home. Superheroes saving the world is /yawn. A family fighting for their baby gets me invested.

Honestly I think if you made Galactus this sort of looming mystery in the background, something Reed was working on that didn't become clear until Act III (Like there are rumors of a silver figure in the background, maybe they see it or finally meet her in Act II) but most of the movie was them trying to deal with having a new child (and Johnny and Ben trying to be what they think are good uncles) would be a better fit. Have Sue try to balance her stuff with the Future Foundation while still trying to take care of Franklin, Reed having to pull himself away from this new mystery eating away at him to be a father, Johnny and Ben doing stuff with Franklin that may put them into conflict with Sue and Reed ("No, you can't fly with him! That is not being a cool uncle!"). I'm not going to outline it all here, but I think it's doable and probably more of what I'd ultimately want.

All of those things are a part of being the symbol. Look at how it is when they come out. It's a circus every time (Ben to a lesser extent, but he even says he hasn't visited in a while). It's one thing to see people on TV and in ads and other media - but is that really a relationship? A fulfilling one? We've seen from our own celebrities that's not the case. And that's what they were- Celebrities and Personalities - not included on the same level other than by a select few.

I don't really agree. I think the movie says that celebrity can be annoying (as they show with Ben briefly), but I don't think there is any story or theme about isolation, especially one that would fit in with their choice of how they structured the movie and scenes. I think it's less of an intentional choice as much as an unintentional one. That's all. I don't think it's really justified in the movie.

 

[Umbran]

I don't disagree, and it definitely hampered their television efforts (see Agents of Shield), but it's the reasoning behind it. Disney saw the movies and such as the parent to everything.

With respect, I don't see that. Nothing other than Feige's comment seems to indicate that is how they've considered it. So, I'd need to see some reliable citations to be convinced.