D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[FormerlyHemlock]

Blech - it sounds more like the time for a tactical retreat from the "caster uber alles" edition, which is what 5E did. Pathfinder is still available if for those who want to track 12 different buff effects and spend 20 minutes recalculating something's stats after a mass dispel in the middle of a fight. I dont want PC's to have that capability, because then it devolves back into a magical buff arms race.

I wasn't making an "edition war" observation--this same tactic is occasionally useful in 5E as well. Any time you're facing a caster of some sort (whether it is a wizard with Vampiric Touch/Fire Shield or a dragon with Haste + Blink + Mirror Image), consider whether it might not be to your advantage to make a tactical retreat and ambush him if he pursues. Even if he doesn't pursue, at least you can run out his buffs. If there are multiple foes, maybe you can even split them up!

First off, it's not complaining. It's observing. Second, there is only ONE powerful first level wizard spell in 5E. The rest are mostly so so at best.

YMMV. For me, the two 1st level spells that I can't live without are Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat. It's the only way a solo first level wizard is ever going to beat an Iron Golem in under five minutes. That's way better than Magic Missile. Mage Armor and Sleep are pretty decent too.

Perhaps the con save to maintain a concentration spell is a bit to stringent. If I were to change anything, it would this. Maybe do away with it entirely. Perhaps a few too many spells are concentration, does web really need this limitation? However, I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

On the other hand, does Web really need a buff? It's already fantastic. It targets most tough monsters' weakest safe (DX is often +0 or worse on really big monsters), and it's reusable too! Every time the warlock knocks the Death Slaad backwards into the web with an Eldritch Blast, it has a pretty good chance of getting snagged and losing a turn trying to untangle itself. Combine with Grease (no Concentration!) for some extra fun, so that whenever it does get an actual action it has to waste half of its movement on standing up and the rest of its movement moving 7.5' through difficult terrain, which isn't quite far enough to get back out of the web... before the Warlock blasts it right back into the middle of the Web again.

Another fun thing to do is to cast Freedom of Movement (1 hour, no Concentration!) on somebody and let him tank from inside of the Web. Most of his enemies are restrained all the time and he can pick or choose which ones to engage each round. (In the right terrain he can stand just outside of the Web and get the same effect with no Freedom of Movement needed, e.g. Web in narrow corridor.)

Don't get me wrong, Web isn't an auto-win button or anything, but in my experience it is a heavy force multiplier. Even at low levels it has better than 50% chance to affect most enemies who enter its area, which means you're probably doubling your combat effectiveness against them. As you level up it only gets better and cheaper, against many-but-not-all foes.

TLDR; Web is already fantastic even with Concentration requirement. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

 

[KarinsDad]

How is this different from not houseruling it and just casting Blindness/Deafness (which requires no Concentration)? You still have to burn through Legendary Resistance either way, and 2nd level spell slots are about as cheap as it gets. Once you burn through, if it's still alive, it will already be blinded and you can then Stunning Strike/Dominate/Bestow Curse permastun/Magic Jar or whatever your ultimate goal was besides killing it.

From an "in character" perspective, does it really make sense that the PCs metagame fighting such a creature to throw wimpy spells at it until it's legendary resistance goes away and then throw powerful spells at it?

Is this what makes sense? Or does it make sense that PCs fighting a dragon might be peeing in their pants and be throwing the most powerful spells they have at it?

Somehow to some people, this metagaming concept of throwing wimpy spells first makes sense. I'm not sure why that makes sense to anyone, but evidently, it does. Weird. Personally, I think that legendary resistance is a subpar rule for multiple reasons. WotC could have come up with much better ideas. For example, a simple set of improvements is to make it a reroll instead of an autosave, and to have an activation roll (as per Champions). This solves the "must throw wimpy save spells first" syndrome because the activation might not occur and if it does, the reroll might not work. On the other hand, it's also not limited to 3 times per day. It's just an inate feature of these types of creatures that may or may not protect them all of the time. None of this metagaming of "Ha ha, you've used legendary resistance 3 times, you're out".

 

[KarinsDad]

YMMV. For me, the two 1st level spells that I can't live without are Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat. It's the only way a solo first level wizard is ever going to beat an Iron Golem in under five minutes.

Yeah cause that's going to show up at a lot of tables.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

From an "in character" perspective, does it really make sense that the PCs metagame fighting such a creature to throw wimpy spells at it until it's legendary resistance goes away and then throw powerful spells at it?

Is this what makes sense? Or does it make sense that PCs fighting a dragon might be peeing in their pants and be throwing the most powerful spells they have at it?

Somehow to some people, this metagaming concept of throwing wimpy spells first makes sense.

It's not a metagame concept. Metagame is the stuff that only players are aware of, not PCs. This isn't metagame, it's part of the physics of the game universe. Of course wizards will figure out how Legendary Resistance works and then adapt. The big question in their minds will be, "Did I just whittle through five legendary resists, or six? Do I feel lucky (punk)?"

Edit: FWIW, I do agree that Legendary Resistance is an extremely strange mechanic. I would gladly replace it with something else if I had such a replacement. Maybe old-school percentile-based magic resistance would be better.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Yeah cause that's going to show up at a lot of tables.

You've never fought something way outside your CR range? Whyever not?

 

[Dausuul]

Note: I'm not really talking about out of combat spells like Find Familiar.

Since you get a heap of out-of-combat spells and they're very useful, you can't just throw them out as inconsequential. You have find familiar, Tenser's floating disk, detect magic, lots of stuff. Built-in ritual casting is a big deal. It's part of what you get in exchange for not being able to keep up with the fighter on focused damage.

 

[Celtavian]

YMMV. For me, the two 1st level spells that I can't live without are Longstrider and Expeditious Retreat. It's the only way a solo first level wizard is ever going to beat an Iron Golem in under five minutes. That's way better than Magic Missile. Mage Armor and Sleep are pretty decent too.

Beating an Iron Golem by running around shooting it with cantrips for five minutes is the height of boredom. That is what I was getting at. That's why I didn't say the wizard was under-powered. He's boring.

[On the other hand, does Web really need a buff? It's already fantastic. It targets most tough monsters' weakest safe (DX is often +0 or worse on really big monsters), and it's reusable too! Every time the warlock knocks the Death Slaad backwards into the web with an Eldritch Blast, it has a pretty good chance of getting snagged and losing a turn trying to untangle itself. Combine with Grease (no Concentration!) for some extra fun, so that whenever it does get an actual action it has to waste half of its movement on standing up and the rest of its movement moving 7.5' through difficult terrain, which isn't quite far enough to get back out of the web... before the Warlock blasts it right back into the middle of the Web again.

What if you don't have a warlock to knock it back? Or other class with knockback? Why would you waste time knocking something back your martials are killing quickly? Why not buff your martials and let them annihilate the creature? Why waste spell slots knocking it back? If your martials wander into the web or onto the grease, they might fall as well. Better to let them beat it down.

Another fun thing to do is to cast Freedom of Movement (1 hour, no Concentration!) on somebody and let him tank from inside of the Web. Most of his enemies are restrained all the time and he can pick or choose which ones to engage each round. (In the right terrain he can stand just outside of the Web and get the same effect with no Freedom of Movement needed, e.g. Web in narrow corridor.)

Are you theory crafting? Or are these tactics you used? I'll tell you why you don't do that to a dragon. He doesn't care about your web. Restrained enemies are nice for mass combat. Wizard doesn't have much trouble in mass combat. It's just as effective to drop a nice fireball on a bunch of creatures lowering their hit points and planting them in range for your martials to kill faster. Or do you usually travel with only a single martial? There are two in my group. Casting freedom of movement on both wastes two level four spell slots. Why would I do that to tank some creature in a web? It's not that useful a tactic. Anything short of a giant or something powerful, we all beat them quickly and easily where we don't need to restrain them. These tactics are low level stuff that isn't necessary at higher level.

TLDR; Web is already fantastic even with Concentration requirement. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up.

I've tried web. It creates more problems than it helps unless your enemies are perfectly set up and your martials can't kill the opponent fast. The martials I play with generally kill fairly quickly and move between kills to get bonus action attacks. Web would slow them down, unless I feel like spending a level 4 slot on freedom of movement, at the moment I save those for fire shields since it is a no concentration protection from fire and cold damage. You only ever three level 4 slots. You going to expend them on freedom of movement?

 

[Celtavian]

Since you get a heap of out-of-combat spells and they're very useful, you can't just throw them out as inconsequential. You have find familiar, Tenser's floating disk, detect magic, lots of stuff. Built-in ritual casting is a big deal. It's part of what you get in exchange for not being able to keep up with the fighter on focused damage.

The familiar was useful at low level. Now it's a one hit against anything we fight. My DM was even kind of enough to give me a pseudodragon. It's AC is 13 or 14. It has 7 hit points. All that we've been fighting at this point hits it on a 5 or better and kills it in one hit. Am I missing something where it gets more hit points? A familiar is useless in combat. It's less useful in scouting as well given the higher Passive Perceptions of opponents. Now that it is easily struck and killed in one hit, sending it out to die all the time doesn't seem like a good role-playing choice.

When does detect magic come into use? I've used it once in nine levels. There aren't many magic items around. There aren't many magical traps. When is it useful? Why are we concerned with carrying something around with Tenser's? You could write nothing down for gold and you would be absolutely fine in 5th edition as listed. You don't even need gold in this edition. It buys you nothing useful other than role-play stuff. You can pick it up later if you feel like it. There is no incentive at the moment to use Tenser's Floating Disk to carry treasure around, since the treasure isn't meaningful for anything other than fluff items.

Like I said in another post, my party started writing treasure down. Once they bought plate armor, we barely keep track of it. Nothing to buy worth the time except healing potions.

In my experience, ritual casting is not a big deal. It's something the DM can use for fluff that is occasionally useful in other circumstances. Find Familiar is very useful at low level for scouting. At higher levels find familiar is a way to get your familiar killed over and over and over again. This is my experience having used ritual casting and find familiar. Look at my earlier posts, I loved find familiar. Now here I am at level 10 with a familiar with 7 hit points and a +3 or 4 stealth. Creatures passive perception is usually higher and one hit from a melee or missile attack kills it. Sending it into scout has gotten it killed. I don't even bother any longer.

 

[Celtavian]

From an "in character" perspective, does it really make sense that the PCs metagame fighting such a creature to throw wimpy spells at it until it's legendary resistance goes away and then throw powerful spells at it?

Is this what makes sense? Or does it make sense that PCs fighting a dragon might be peeing in their pants and be throwing the most powerful spells they have at it?

Somehow to some people, this metagaming concept of throwing wimpy spells first makes sense. I'm not sure why that makes sense to anyone, but evidently, it does. Weird. Personally, I think that legendary resistance is a subpar rule for multiple reasons. WotC could have come up with much better ideas. For example, a simple set of improvements is to make it a reroll instead of an autosave, and to have an activation roll (as per Champions). This solves the "must throw wimpy save spells first" syndrome because the activation might not occur and if it does, the reroll might not work. On the other hand, it's also not limited to 3 times per day. It's just an inate feature of these types of creatures that may or may not protect them all of the time. None of this metagaming of "Ha ha, you've used legendary resistance 3 times, you're out".

Anyone telling you it is easy to burn through Legendary Resistance, hasn't fought many creatures with Legendary Resistance.

So far my experience has been that Legendary Creatures have high saves to begin with. Not only do they get to automatically save against a spell that manages to get through, they often save against your spells without having to use any Legendary Resistance. I'm in a party with a bard. We tried to land some low level spells on the dragon to burn its Legendary Resistance, it saved against the spells. We took off one Legendary Resistance in six rounds of combat. We wasted five or six precious spell slots to do it. You don't have of low level spell slots. No idea why anyone is telling you that we do.

You get 4 first level spells, 3 second, 3 third. That is ten spell slots. You do not burn through legendary resistance. Those low level slots also have to be used on defense like shield, mirror image, or other defensive or utility spells. So don't let anyone tell you burning low level spell slots to try to get past legendary resistance works. It doesn't. You have other spells you need to preserve low level spell slots for. You can't burn them all and hope to stay effective. You're asking to die and not be able to help the party that way. Your best bet is to buff the martials and let them do the damage while launching cantrips.


That's why I'm not going to lie to you and tell you the wizard isn't effective. The wizard is effective and helpful to the party. If you don't mind playing a cantrip launching buff bot wizard, you'll be fine. It's a boring play-style to me. I like to do something offensive along with helping the martials that doesn't consist of endlessly firing off a cantrip because wasting a slot on a direct damage spell that won't do much more damage is a very bad use of limited spell slots.

 

[Celtavian]

Hyperbole much?

I'm not talking about 12 simultaneous effects. I'm talking about 2 or 3.

I'd just like to be able to cast one of my better offensive spells like Bigby's Hand, while buffing the fighter with fly so he can have fun to.

I hate it when I'm forced into choices like "Let the fighter get into combat or launch a great combat spell myself" or "Provide the priest with energy protection so he can cast bless on the martials or cast a bigby's hand so I can hammer the dragon too." Those are the kind of choices I despise. It's basically saying "Have some fun yourself or let the other players have fun."

I like the toned down magic. I don't want a return to uber wizards like 3rd edition. I was tired of that as a DM. But don't place me in a position where I have to choose between casting some of my better offensive spells or buffing the party. That's boring for my character. I shouldn't have to be bored, so the other players can have fun. I don't want to leave the fighter standing on the ground throwing javelins with disadvantage, while I cast Bigby's Hand and start hitting the dragon. That makes me feel bad for the fighter or paladin.

That's the position I'm in right now as a wizard. Cast spells that help my party attack the creature or cast an effective spell that allows me to attack. It becomes a choice of who gets to have fun doing some damage to the main enemy rather than a means of all of us having fun. That seems like a bad design choice to me. Yet it is what is happening in my experience at 10th level.

My DM gave me a staff of power. I shrugged. Big deal. +2 AC doesn't help much. Things still hit me very easily due to a lack of armor. It helped get my AC to 19. 19 is nothing at level 10 to enemy creatures. +2 saves is nice. It's roughly 3 to 4 extra spells of a specific type a day. Even that didn't excite me a great deal. I need an item that allows me to concentrate on more than one spell without using my bonus action, otherwise what is the point.