D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[SkidAce]

No, not really. There are many RPGs around where PCs can do more than one non-instantaneous spell at a time.

But it WAS a selling point...its why I bought into 5E (yes, among other things).

I see your point, it just varies some from table to table.

Game on!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Sounds like an excellent time to perform a tactical retreat. Come back later when buffs run out.

Blech - it sounds more like the time for a tactical retreat from the "caster uber alles" edition, which is what 5E did. Pathfinder is still available if for those who want to track 12 different buff effects and spend 20 minutes recalculating something's stats after a mass dispel in the middle of a fight. I dont want PC's to have that capability, because then it devolves back into a magical buff arms race.

To me, limiting caster powers is part of the appeal of 5E. You wanna do things no mundane character can do, like talk with the dead and read minds and create illusions? You pay the premiums for breaking the laws of reality and repicking your superpowers after a nap. The fighter or rogue is locked into doing the same limited actions every day. If they are better at doing whatever they do than a wizard, GOOD. Because the wizard can pick something different to do the next day (in addition to doing things they simply can't. No matter what your acrobatics check is, you aren't walking through a wall). The swiss army knife should never be a task than the single purpose tool. Fighters pretty much have jack squat in their corner for class based out of combat utility (all classes can RP solutions and select skills). They deal damage, and are slightly more survivable than most other classes. So they should probably be the high water mark for single target damage. No caster, not even an evoker (who still gets non evocation type magical utility and versatility), should touch that.

Part of the issue Karinsdad is facing is in selecting Abjurer, which to me feels hands down the worst of the specializations. Its main benefit is in shoring up a weakness, when in a team based RPG, its almost always better to capitalize on a strength.

In Celtivian's case, the damage the fighter/paladin did above and beyond what they would have done shooting their bows at the dragon is effectively yours, by virtue of your enabling their attacks.

My current 5E character is a bard/shai'ir (homebrew warlock pact). My main contribution isn't damage, but using rituals/illusions/charms to great effect in social situations, investigation, etc. Heck, the minor illusion cantrip alone can be really amazing if used well.

 

[keterys]

It's possible to have someone fly and be invisible. You just need multiple sources of concentration. For example, have the wizard cast Fly on someone and that someone drink a potion of invisibility.

It certainly takes a lot more work. Overall, the edition suggests using different tactics from previous editions. That's okay, frankly.

For example, being able to use any and all ritual spells whenever you want is quite a boon.

 

[KarinsDad]

If you want to be powerful, you have to take the powerful spells. This is like complaining that the fighter with the short sword does less damage than the fighter with the longsword. If you want to do more damage, you have to wield the longsword. If you want to be a powerful wizard, you have to use the most powerful spells.

First off, it's not complaining. It's observing. Second, there is only ONE powerful first level wizard spell in 5E. The rest are mostly so so at best.

Wow. I can do 10 points of damage with Magic Missile, or the Rogue can do 10 or more points of damage (13 with two weapon) with his normal attack most rounds, encounter after encounter after encounter. Sure, Magic Missile autohits. zzzzzzzzzz

At low level, spells are rare. They should shine.

Shield is nice. It helps a lot. But it doesn't do much towards contributing to the party in a fight.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter is ok. The save every round, though, means that the wizard gives up his action and a spell slot so that a foe can lose his action and be prone and lose an action. For usually a single round.

This is not very impressive. The wizard sets a foe up with this and it might not help much because the other PCs are busy elsewhere. Even if they get to attack him, they might have hit anyway. He not only gets a save once a round, but he also saves every time your allies hit him. So if anyone hits him before his first turn in the initiative comes up, he might be back up on his next turn.

It's an ok spell and it is probably the second best spell at first level for a wizard. Yawn.

Note: I'm not really talking about out of combat spells like Find Familiar.

 

[PaulO.]

It is a little funny you mention Magic Missile. It saved my character's life last week. I got paralyzed and dropped by some scarecrow thing. The wizard began kiting and casting Magic Missile while I fail two death saving throws and one save. The other party member, a barbarian, was occupied with two other monsters further up, while our paladin and druid were no shows that night. The wizard killed the scarecrow with Magic Missiles without taking damage or being paralyzed, and stabilized me.

When every attack matters, you want the autohit. Among characters without healing, I would rather have the wizard in that situation than a fighter or rogue. There's no way I'd want to risk my character's life on attack rolls.

Talking about this actually makes me want to play a wizard. When I saw the title to this thread, I was expecting a discussion of how squishy they were at low levels. In both games that I've played alongside a wizard, they were very useful. They don't have the consistency in every fight of something like a fighter or warlock, but the wizards I play with have both made some clutch plays and look like a lot of fun to play.

 

[KarinsDad]

Pathfinder is still available if for those who want to track 12 different buff effects and spend 20 minutes recalculating something's stats after a mass dispel in the middle of a fight. I dont want PC's to have that capability, because then it devolves back into a magical buff arms race.

Hyperbole much?

I'm not talking about 12 simultaneous effects. I'm talking about 2 or 3.

 

[Gadget]

Perhaps the con save to maintain a concentration spell is a bit to stringent. If I were to change anything, it would this. Maybe do away with it entirely. Perhaps a few too many spells are concentration, does web really need this limitation? However, I wouldn't want to throw the baby out with the bath water.

What I don't want is a return to the 3.x days of layered spell buffs and magical arms race. Some seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. It might be that with the limitations on casters (concentration, fewer spell slots, no more free scaling, magic resistance, Legendary resistance, etc.), we should make sure that when the spell does go off, the effects are more significant for some spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see your point, it just varies some from table to table.

Game on!

Yup. Game on!

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

First off, it's not complaining. It's observing. Second, there is only ONE powerful first level wizard spell in 5E. The rest are mostly so so at best.

Wow. I can do 10 points of damage with Magic Missile, or the Rogue can do 10 or more points of damage (13 with two weapon) with his normal attack most rounds, encounter after encounter after encounter. Sure, Magic Missile autohits. zzzzzzzzzz

Your damage is automatic, ranged, force and doesnt require a buddy standing there/advantage. It hits things the rogue can't hurt as well without a magic weapon. How much SHOULD it do? Magic missile was historically a bad low level option since you only got one missile. IMO, it's actually the best its been.

At low level, spells are rare. They should shine.

So 2nd level spells should be worse? Fighters should deal less damage with each attack when they get their 2nd? I don't get this line of thinking. Everyone is less capable at low level.

Shield is nice. It helps a lot. But it doesn't do much towards contributing to the party in a fight.

Again, your abjurer is trying to push water uphill. You're spending resources to temporarily attain fighter AC, while still having lower HP and weaker attacks. You'd be better off playing a mountain dwarf wizard or taking a level in fighter for armor proficiencies. That will also save you spell slots. I don't want to say you picked a trap option... but there seems to be easier ways to accomplish the same goal of having an arcane caster with respectable defenses.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter is ok. The save every round, though, means that the wizard gives up his action and a spell slot so that a foe can lose his action and be prone and lose an action. For usually a single round.

This is not very impressive. The wizard sets a foe up with this and it might not help much because the other PCs are busy elsewhere. Even if they get to attack him, they might have hit anyway. He not only gets a save once a round, but he also saves every time your allies hit him. So if anyone hits him before his first turn in the initiative comes up, he might be back up on his next turn.

It's an ok spell and it is probably the second best spell at first level for a wizard. Yawn.

IMO its a very solid spell. One of the wizard's strengths is a wide variety of effects targeting various defenses. If you take some Wisdom saves, some Constitution saves and some Dex saves, you can target the enemy's weak spots. Toss Hideous Laughter on an Ogre with his mighty -2 save and wail on his buddy. You've prevented his damage while getting to focus fire another down faster.

Note: I'm not really talking about out of combat spells like Find Familiar.

You should be however. That's a big part of the equation. Its like saying bards suck without considering their additional skills, expertise, etc. Casters can do things no one else can. Your familiar is a good scout that's more easily replaceable than a PC if things go south. Throw a silent image and add another 5 "archers" stepping out from behind some rocks to your ambush. Maybe those phantom foes eat a nasty ae spell if a fight breaks out. Hey, better your imaginary friend than you! Rituals don't use a slot, and only take 10 minutes or so. You basically lost the DPR race right out of the gate. Focus on what you do well.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

To me, the easiest answer is to allow the PCs to use more than one concentration spell at the same time. That way, the spell casters can do stuff like Web and Hold Monster and a few others on the real tough foes and feel like they are contributing because it's not just monster autosave every spell that fails. It also requires the least number of changes to the rules.

How is this different from not houseruling it and just casting Blindness/Deafness (which requires no Concentration)? You still have to burn through Legendary Resistance either way, and 2nd level spell slots are about as cheap as it gets. Once you burn through, if it's still alive, it will already be blinded and you can then Stunning Strike/Dominate/Bestow Curse permastun/Magic Jar or whatever your ultimate goal was besides killing it.