D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Celtavian]

I think the problem sits more on monster design rather than PC build.

Magic resistance is too generic/generalized and too common.

Legendary Resistance is a very potent ability, undervalued in design and broadly applied.

It would be better to make monsters resistant on certain saving throws (wisdom or charm) for example.

Legendary Resistance is the same as immunity unless you have multiple spell casters.
Even then, legendary resistance is just a tax on your spell slots.

Couple that with the fact such creatures have high saves to begin with. Even with multiple casters, burning through legendary resistance is next to impossible and often a waste of spell slots.

We have three casters in our group. Cleric, Bard, and Wizard evoker. We have yet to burn through Legendary Resistance. In battle, we have other things to do than try to launch a spell every round that tries to force the creature to use Legendary Resistance. Buffing is big. Healing for the cleric is big. If concentration breaks due to damage from a big breath weapon or AoE attack or if one of us goes down to damage, we have to buff the character again. Lots of stuff going.

People that think in a big battle you can launch save spell after save spell at the Legendary Creature are theory crafting. You can't actually do that. You have other stuff going on and other responsibilities. You are getting hit by Legendary Action attacks and Lair action attacks which can disrupt Concentration making it so you must cast buffs again. You don't have time to see if you can burn Legendary Resistance down. By that time your martials might be dead or you might be dead. You have to be effective. That requires using attack roll spells that guarantee you do some damage. You can't be wasting time hoping it misses a key save.

It's all been very different in actual play than I thought it would be. A few random lucky rolls change everything in a fight for a monster. A random lucky save and you wasted not only a precious spell slot, but an action and an entire turn that he monster uses to rip you apart. The creatures with lair and legendary actions are dishing a lot of damage very quickly. You have to do the same or you're going to die.

 

[Celtavian]

Because the fireball can't miss and hits multiple targets? Comparing the damage of a cantrip to fireball while assuming the cantrip always hits and the save is made against the fireball isn't a fair comparison. The cantrip is full damage if it hits, and no damage if it misses. The fireball always does at least half damage even if the save is made (barring evasion and damage resistance). So fireball is much more reliable damage, and can hit many more targets.

You wasted a 3rd level slot that can be used for something else on 15 points of damage. That's why not. You don't do it unless you have no choice. You think it's smart when a dragon breathes on you for 59, 29 on a save, you launch a 3rd level spell for 15 points in return? You don't do that. Not smart at all.

Why not? So you have to make a choice about what is most important at that point in the fight. If you are worried about your concentration getting broken, then work on improving your defenses, take cover, or invest in feats and/or stat increase to improve you chance of making the concentration check. Do you want to be a damage-dealer, or do you want to be a buffer/debuffer? How is it unfair that you don't get to be both at the same time? Wizards get the flexibility to make that choice, something that not all classes get.

No. You don't make a choice. You cast fly to get the martials into battle. Period. Concentration getting broken? Tell me how you make a concentration check when you just took 60 points of damage and the DC is 30 and you get a +3 to +5 on the roll (if you took Resilient? Tell me again about worrying? No, it's going to get broken. Improving your defenses? How? I have a staff of power, bracers of defense, and Mage Armor. That is a wizard's defenses. My AC is 19. Tell me how I can improve them? I cast shield when I need to. AC 19 is nothing to high level creatures. Easy to hit.

You're completely missing the point. It's about choosing between my having fun or the martial having fun. Our strategies are effective. That's why we're still alive. Sorry, it's not fun as a player to cast fly and then launch a cantrip a bunch of times. It's not fun at all as a wizard. Those are my options otherwise the martials sit on the ground throwing javelins with disadvantage.

In the game I'm currently running, the party is level 3 and the wizard is a gnome illusionist. The gnome has single-handedly contributed more to their success than any other character through smart use of his familiar (cast as a ritual) and illusions. Sure other PCs dish out more damage in a fight, but the wizard has prevented several fights single-handedly and in many other cases gotten the party a surprise round that ends the fight before it even begins. The illusionist's witchbolt also swung a fight that was looking like a TPK into an easy win by repeatedly breaking another caster's concentration.

You're level 3. Get back to me at level 10. I was having fun at level 3 when sleep was effective, saves were low, and the yard trash wasn't hitting you for 25 points an attack, while having 50 to 70 hit points each while you're still launching 8d6 fireballs. Legendary Creatures are an entirely other matter. It's not real fun when the dragon breathes on the party for 60 points and a Con save, follows it up with a legendary action tail slap for another 10 to 15, then drops a lair action on your for another 10 damage doing anywhere 55 to 85 points of damage in a single round. Then he gets to start hammering you with physical attacks.

The gods help you if he gets lucky on a breath weapon recharge and gets to breathe twice on the party in two rounds. You might as well prepare to make a new character.

 

[Celtavian]

I've gone the opposite way as Celtavian. I spotted the weaknesses in 5E wizards right off the bat; spent some time looking at non-concentration options; am now okay with them. They're definitely not for everybody, but if you think Conjure Elemental and Rary's Telepathic Bond are cool, wizard might be the class for you. If pure DPS is what floats your boat, make a fighter instead.

I still prefer the AD&D magic system because it has more scope for awesome (sneak into the neogi base and start laying Fire Traps!), but 5E has other nice things about it, and wizards are viable characters in it, especially at high level when you can boost your DPS by making a Simulacrum of the fighter. ;-)

If you want to change the system, fine, go ahead, but there are people who can have fun with the 5E wizard as written. Oddly enough, many of them seem to enjoy 5E fighters as well--unless that is my imagination?

Conjure Elemental is a concentration spell. Can't cast it and keep a fly or protection from energy active. Though conjure elemental is something I'm thinking about for crawling. I don't usually need concentration spells like fly or protection from energy save when I reach Legendary creature fights. Then I need them and need them badly.

 

[Celtavian]

1.) If the fighter or paladin is on the verge of eliminating the threat, why do you even want to spend spell slots on it? That's not efficient. Just plink away with cantrips and move on to the next threat.
2.) Either use summoning spells (Conjure Minor Elemental!), or use cheap-but-effective spells like Blindness to whittle away at Legendary Resistance (targeting the weak saves) before you blow expensive spells.
3.) Enjoy leveraging enhancing/protecting spells like Bless or Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.
4.) If none of this sounds like fun to you then yes, don't play a wizard in 5E. You're not cut out for it.

If I said "wizards aren't effective", then your argument makes sense.

It's not fun. Legendary creatures make their saves without using Legendary Resistance. Your whittling away at nothing. Your wasting actions and spell slots trying to force it to use Legendary Resistance.

Conjure Elemental is concentration. Back to square one where I've already used concentration.

 

[Schmoe]

If I said "wizards aren't effective", then your argument makes sense.

It's not fun. Legendary creatures make their saves without using Legendary Resistance. Your whittling away at nothing. Your wasting actions and spell slots trying to force it to use Legendary Resistance.

Conjure Elemental is concentration. Back to square one where I've already used concentration.

You and KarinsDad are arguing two different things. You are saying you are still a key part of your group, critical in fact, as without you it sounds like your fighters would be "on the ground throwing javelins with disadvantage."

To your point, I agree with you to some extent that they may have gone overboard on the concentration. I have no problem with buffs requiring concentration, but Wall of Stone? Web? Cloudkill? Those are just a few examples. Forcing a wizard to choose only one of those severely restricts tactical options, and fewer options usually means less fun.

 

[Pickles JG]

I like playing support characters so I expect I will enjoy a wizard.

I suspect concectration is too severe. Its all overthe place for other characters too. Rangers cant use half theirspells if they want to hunters mark, Paladins smite spells dont work with their buffs (and free smite after the fact is already a bit too much).

For wizards my first pass patch would be to allow one buff and one offensive spell.

What is what would be obvious/negotiable but summons would be both ...

 

[Dausuul]

The familiar was useful at low level. Now it's a one hit against anything we fight. My DM was even kind of enough to give me a pseudodragon. It's AC is 13 or 14. It has 7 hit points. All that we've been fighting at this point hits it on a 5 or better and kills it in one hit. Am I missing something where it gets more hit points? A familiar is useless in combat. It's less useful in scouting as well given the higher Passive Perceptions of opponents. Now that it is easily struck and killed in one hit, sending it out to die all the time doesn't seem like a good role-playing choice.

When does detect magic come into use? I've used it once in nine levels.

I thought we were talking about low-level wizards in this thread. Of course a 10th-level wizard isn't going to get a ton of use out of 1st-level rituals. You have bigger spells now.

 

[Styracosaurus]

I could see legendary resistance kicking in once the monster is at deaths door.
But only as a monster' last defense.

Generalized spell resistance is not sexy monster design.
I like strengths and weaknesses built in (at least not strengths across the board).

Breaking the wizard into warlock/Sorceror/wizard has left the wizard role as Batman's utility belt.
Even with changing spell resistance, the wizard will be radically different than previous editions.

The concentration rules do not bother me, but I have not played high levels yet. I think tweaking the monsters would be easier.

 

[seebs]

Hyperbole much?

I'm not talking about 12 simultaneous effects. I'm talking about 2 or 3.

To be fair, though, 12 is about what we saw at high levels in Pathfinder.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

What if you don't have a warlock to knock it back? Or other class with knockback? Why would you waste time knocking something back your martials are killing quickly? Why not buff your martials and let them annihilate the creature? Why waste spell slots knocking it back? If your martials wander into the web or onto the grease, they might fall as well. Better to let them beat it down.

Are you theory crafting? Or are these tactics you used? I'll tell you why you don't do that to a dragon. He doesn't care about your web. Restrained enemies are nice for mass combat. Wizard doesn't have much trouble in mass combat. It's just as effective to drop a nice fireball on a bunch of creatures lowering their hit points and planting them in range for your martials to kill faster. Or do you usually travel with only a single martial? There are two in my group. Casting freedom of movement on both wastes two level four spell slots. Why would I do that to tank some creature in a web? It's not that useful a tactic. Anything short of a giant or something powerful, we all beat them quickly and easily where we don't need to restrain them. These tactics are low level stuff that isn't necessary at higher level.

I've tried web. It creates more problems than it helps unless your enemies are perfectly set up and your martials can't kill the opponent fast. The martials I play with generally kill fairly quickly and move between kills to get bonus action attacks. Web would slow them down, unless I feel like spending a level 4 slot on freedom of movement, at the moment I save those for fire shields since it is a no concentration protection from fire and cold damage. You only ever three level 4 slots. You going to expend them on freedom of movement?

Okay. You're in a mid-level party (four 7th-level PCs, say one melee Paladin of Devotion, a Sharpshooter fighter, a Moon Druid, and an Enchanter wizard) and you've just bumped into the Troll Cavern: five Trolls in a 60'-wide cavern, all looking directly at you, standing there in the 5'-wide tunnel which leads into the Troll Cavern. Can you name a buff which is more cost-effective than Web in this situation? (Restrained = disadvantage to attack, advantage to be attacked, zero movement. Allows you to take on only one or two trolls at a time, at a heavy advantage.) Freedom of Movement lasts for one hour, but for the sake of argument we'll say it's dedicated specifically to this fight, so you can choose any two buffs under 4th level. This is nearly a triple-Deadly fight so spending a 4th level + 2nd level spell slot on this fight is a reasonable thing to do.