D&D 5E Low Level Wizards Really Do Suck in 5E

[Grainger]

I don't have the patience to do a tactical/mathematical analysis but around our gaming table everybody actually commented on how great the new Wizard is in 5e. I come from a background of comparing new editions of D&D to BX and 1E... and compared to those editions, the new version of the low level Wizard seems pretty powerful and engaging to play. I think you might be falling into a trap most of us do from time to time with roleplaying gaming and just thinking about it all a bit too much maybe? In the big scheme of things, the new class...whether more or less poweful is clearly not broken. It can do many interesting things to contribute to the excitement and adventure around the table as can all the classes in the new edition. if indeed your character is getting mathematically overwhelmed by the other player's characters and that bothers you...do something creative through play to make your Wiz stand out? Some of the weakest tactical characters my friends and I have played are also some of the most memorable...because they gained notoriety and influence despite their percieved lack of firepower...also a well found magic item can shift that balance dramatically too...something the DM might consider at some point. Just thoughts...enjoy the game

If I could give XP multiple times, I would. Coming from the perspective of BECMI and 2e, Wizards are super-powerful as far as I'm concerned. This obsession with damage parity (it must have emerged in 3e or 4e, I dunno) is not something that's a healthy part of the modern game as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Celtavian]

Legendary Resistance combined with high saves makes for very limited options for casters. Mainly single target damage spells with no save are the way to go. Save spells are nearly useless against legendary creatures with resistance. It's hard to make a spell list for dealing with the standard mob packs and then a legendary creature at the end given the spell strategy for each is very different. I'm still getting used to it. It's nearly impossible to land a spell on a legendary creature. I haven't done it yet in eight levels.

 

[FighterMageThief]

I don't think the idea was to make wizards better off than they were before. In fact, I think they had it pretty good. To me this feels like how magic-users used to be. You sucked at low levels in exchange for future power.

+1

1E magic users were the epitome of sucking at low levels for future power...IF you were able to survive to that point

 

[Sacrosanct]

Legendary Resistance combined with high saves makes for very limited options for casters. Mainly single target damage spells with no save are the way to go. Save spells are nearly useless against legendary creatures with resistance. It's hard to make a spell list for dealing with the standard mob packs and then a legendary creature at the end given the spell strategy for each is very different. I'm still getting used to it. It's nearly impossible to land a spell on a legendary creature. I haven't done it yet in eight levels.

Two things. Firstly, how often in the context of the entire game does one fight legendary creatures? Hardly at all, so this challenge is not really a big hit to the class as a whole. It would be like saying a fighter is totally worthless because he happens to be going against a flying creature. For that encounter, sure it's harder. But it's not a negative of the class as a whole.

Secondly, you do realize that casters aren't the only class that impose saves on targets, right? We fought a white dragon and it was my battlemaster fighter going nova, forcing saves with his maneuvers, that sucked up the legendary resistance just for this reason, so the casters could fling away as normal.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Legendary Resistance combined with high saves makes for very limited options for casters. Mainly single target damage spells with no save are the way to go. Save spells are nearly useless against legendary creatures with resistance. It's hard to make a spell list for dealing with the standard mob packs and then a legendary creature at the end given the spell strategy for each is very different. I'm still getting used to it. It's nearly impossible to land a spell on a legendary creature. I haven't done it yet in eight levels.

High level spells open up more options. "Maze" ignores legendary resistance for example.

At low levels you just have to burn through by targeting the weakest saves repeatedly.

 

[Laeknir]

In original Basic D&D and AD&D it was a significant challenge to roleplay a wizard from first level. You might have a grand total of two hit points, and a one-shot magic missile, and spend the rest of the time figuring out how not to get hit. You would benefit your party in ways that weren't about combat, with guile and intelligent thinking. That was the challenge: be smart, and survive. By mid-level, this didn't change much and you often were more about buffing or enhancing others than excelling in combat. At high levels, you outshined everyone with spells of mass destruction, but also enhancement and utility.

People today think more about every character and every class needing to be balanced and equally valuable in combat. But back in the day it was more about the party and not the individual. Your party ensured your survival now, and later you'd have exactly the right spells for numerous situations. You were no less and no more valuable than the rogue who detected traps, set them, or undid them. You were no more or less valuable than the cleric who healed everyone, soaked damage, and provided inspiration. You were no more or less valuable than the fighter who took most of the damage and gave the others time and thought to use their own abilities wisely. As a party you were not "equals" but all very uniquely valuable to your team. In the era of balance and equal combat utility, those things are largely gone.

Mages are meant to be more fragile IMO. The party is meant to be a team working together, not just a bunch of people who group together.

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Legendary Resistance combined with high saves makes for very limited options for casters. Mainly single target damage spells with no save are the way to go. Save spells are nearly useless against legendary creatures with resistance. It's hard to make a spell list for dealing with the standard mob packs and then a legendary creature at the end given the spell strategy for each is very different. I'm still getting used to it. It's nearly impossible to land a spell on a legendary creature. I haven't done it yet in eight levels.

I don't know about your experience, but in mine...when encountering a creature that was immune or highly resistant to my magic-users spells, I'd counter that by not casting spells at it. Use Wall of Stone to bottleneck it or provide protection/cover for other party members. Use Rock to Mud on the ceiling above it so hurt, slow or blind it. Use Gust of Wind to stir up dust/debris to give us some cover. Use Enchanted Weapon, Bless, or Protection from Normal Missiles on party members to boost their capabilities. There were/are nigh endless ways a MU can be very useful to the success of a combat without casting any spells directly on an opponent.

I have had inexperienced players get upset and frustrated when their spellcaster couldn't "do anything". After the encounter or game I'd go over the encounter and point out suggestions on all the things he actually could have done. This either (A) turns a light on over their head as they realize they've basically been thinking in "2-dimensions" (re: only seeing the obvious), and they then start to really shine ...or... (B) they conclude that spellcasters "suck" and "can't do anything in this game", leading them to play nothing but the same old "fighter" character over and over and over, always looking for in-game numbers to crunch to get the most bonuses so that they can "do something in combat". Seems to be about a 50/50 chance of either, really.

Anyway...coming from Basic D&D (the B before there was an X), MU/Elf and Cleric were always the default "heavy hitters" as far as overall capabilities. All the other classes were "consistently useful", so they get a lot of play, but when a MU/Elf/Cleric (re: spellcaster) has an opportunity to use his magic...watch out, sit back, and prepare to be impressed (or at least, entertained!).

^_^

Paul L. Ming

 

[miniaturehoarder]

Some folks feel the "Save Ends" ruins many spells.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I can't be the only one who thinks Power Word Kill's 100hp limit is woefully low, especially since it's ALL or NOTHING. If we go by the thought wave of "9th level spells should be awesome encounter ending abilities" the LEAST it should do is deal 100 damage to those OVER 100hp.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I can't be the only one who thinks Power Word Kill's 100hp limit is woefully low, especially since it's ALL or NOTHING. If we go by the thought wave of "9th level spells should be awesome encounter ending abilities" the LEAST it should do is deal 100 damage to those OVER 100hp.

Yes, I would only opt to learn that spell out of an OCD desire to have "all the spells" in my spellbook. It's slightly better for Enchanters, but overall, the Power Word spells in the absence of speed factor initiative/spell casting times lose a lot of their attraction. Power Word: Kill is exactly as fast as Meteor Swarm.

That being said, Power Word: Kill is one of the few good ways to instantly kill an onion druid (20th level Moon Druid), so that's something. (On the other hand, how often is it really critical to kill an onion druid right now as opposed to using a Hold Monster + whatever combo? It's not enough extra utility to justify the opportunity cost.)

 

[pming]

Hiya!

Re: Power Word - Kill

I think the 100hp is a *smidge* low... IMC it's going to be 120hp. That said, I never look at spells from the perspective of what horrendously powerful creatures said spell level would "likely be used against". I always look at spells from the power level of "how effective would this be against a Commoner? A Sargent of the Watch? Or the Kings Champion?". Now, admittedly, my campaigns are generally "low-level oriented" in terms of levels of NPC's. A commoner will NEVER have more than about 10hp. Period. The Sgt. of the Watch may be the equivilent of a 3rd level fighter...so, call it, 20hp. The Kings Champion...probably looking at 8th to 11th level or so (if he was higher level than that, he'd probably have his own keep/castle). For him, call it 50hp to 70hp. Bottom line...PW:K will easily kill *any* of them.

In short, the powers that a mid to high level PC (let alone an entire adventuring company) can bring to bare is awesome. You know those Expendables movies? The last one, the 3rd I think, had them fighting more or less an *army* of soldiers, with helicopters, hundreds of soldiers, and some tanks. Against...what...six or seven "PC's"? Guess who won. Now, would you use PW:K against one of the soldiers? Nope. Against the BBEG? Again, nope. Against the BBEG's prized henchman? Sure thing!

I think the main reason for the 100hp limit is really simple: when fighting epic monsters like Demon Lord's, Dragons, etc., it keep's the spell from changing it's name to "Power Word: Win".

^_^

Paul L. Ming