M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[Dannyalcatraz]

Oh, I support your right to say what you want, however poorly I view you as a person.

Mod Note:

Making it personal potentially earns warning points. You’ve realized that potential.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

And that board existed between what dates?

Doesn't matter. Holocaust denial is so ridiculous that there can be no excuses or mitigating circumstances that make it ok.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Lovecraft wasn't a Nazi; in the early-mid 30s he expressed admiration for Hitler's handling of the depression and political chaos (this was the period where Hitler was also Time Magazine's Man of the Year), but turned against Hitler and the NSDAP before his death in '37.

The problem with Nazis is that for certain age groups it has morphed from a clear political definition into a generic term for 'people I don't like'. It's literally getting over-used into oblivion.

Mod Note:

Clearly drifting into current-day politics. Drop it please.

 

[Jd Smith1]

Doesn't matter. Holocaust denial is so ridiculous that there can be no excuses or mitigating circumstances that make it ok.

It is completely ridiculous, but how can you take someone who believes it seriously?

 

[Davies]

It is completely ridiculous, but how can you take someone who believes it seriously?

By recognizing that they might have lawyers, guns and money, with which they can do harm beyond hurting someone's feelings. So you might not take their ideas seriously, but you should take them quite seriously.

 

[Sacrosanct]

These types of threads are always challenging, and always depressing to find out abhorrent behavior from a cherished contributor. I've never been a fan of Tekumel or Barker, just never got into it at all, even if I knew what it was.

The challenging part is everyone has different lines in the sand. Some seem obvious, some not so much, and nearly everyone has a different thing they consider deal-breaking. It's why I am hesitant to call anyone a Nazi-sympathizer for enjoying the product separate from the person. It may seem that way to me at times, but there is a big slippery slope.

If you're a nazi sympathizer for continuing to enjoy Tekumel as a product, does that also mean..
..you're a racist for enjoying Lovecraft?
..you're anti-trans for enjoying Harry Potter?
..you're pro-child molestation for enjoying Michael Jackson music?
..you're pro-child abuse for enjoying David Eddings books?
..you're a misogynist for enjoying D&D because Gygax invented it?

I suspect only each individual can make that choice, even if I suspect most people, even those who enjoy the works above, do not support any of those abhorrent beliefs.

 

[Jd Smith1]

By recognizing that they might have lawyers, guns and money, with which they can do harm beyond hurting someone's feelings. So you might not take their ideas seriously, but you should take them quite seriously.

I simply can't. During my working career I dealt regularly and repeatedly with all manner of neo-Nazis, Ayrans, and their ilk, and it was difficult to take them seriously (a more poorly organized, ineptly led, and willfully ignorant bunch has seldom existed, I believe). But I never met one who was thick enough to seriously deny that the Holocaust took place.

Everyone has lawyers, guns, and money. But if you seriously deny an event of such historical scope, documentation, and admission, you're not a threat to anyone, IMO.

 

[Parmandur]

So, I admit I was wrong. People have presented enough information to convince me Phil Barker probably was on the board of a Holocaust-denial journal into the 2000s. It's a little weird, but then people are weird, and don't always make sense to us.

Besides, Nazis are one of the few groups 90% of people can still agree to hate (used to be 99). Hate to give that up.

I'm

These types of threads are always challenging, and always depressing to find out abhorrent behavior from a cherished contributor. I've never been a fan of Tekumel or Barker, just never got into it at all, even if I knew what it was.

The challenging part is everyone has different lines in the sand. Some seem obvious, some not so much, and nearly everyone has a different thing they consider deal-breaking. It's why I am hesitant to call anyone a Nazi-sympathizer for enjoying the product separate from the person. It may seem that way to me at times, but there is a big slippery slope.

If you're a nazi sympathizer for continuing to enjoy Tekumel as a product, does that also mean..
..you're a racist for enjoying Lovecraft?
..you're anti-trans for enjoying Harry Potter?
..you're pro-child molestation for enjoying Michael Jackson music?
..you're pro-child abuse for enjoying David Eddings books?
..you're a misogynist for enjoying D&D because Gygax invented it?

I suspect only each individual can make that choice, even if I suspect most people, even those who enjoy the works above, do not support any of those abhorrent beliefs.

I wouldnthink that being a Tekumel fan makes someone a Nazi...but it is important to understand the worldview of the creator, just as it is important to analyzing Tolkien to understand his Platonism and Catholocism (speaking as a Platonist and Catholic myself, so it doesn'teven have to come from a place of disagreement, just understanding), and it is important to understand Lovecrafts...everything...when reading his work. Enjoying the art of a creator doesn't mean agreeing with everything thought...but you have to take account of it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But if we operate under the premise that opinion has been modified because of an elimination of public expression, then racism ended in the USA decades ago...

That’s silly from start to finish.

Public expression hasn’t been eliminated, the use of certain forms have been declared to be less acceptable by a majority of society. You can still use those forms, but the odds of receiving negative feedback for doing so have increased.

And the only people who think racism in the USA ended decades ago are the ones who have no idea what racism really is.

 

[Jd Smith1]

That’s silly from start to finish.

Public expression hasn’t been eliminated, the use of certain forms have been declared to be less acceptable by a majority of society. You can still use those forms, but the odds of receiving negative feedback for doing so have increased.

And the only people who think racism in the USA ended decades ago are the ones who have no idea what racism really is.

You quoted half the post. The line you quoted was meant to disprove the statement I quoted and the other half of my post above.

I know better than most the racism is alive and well; it is my opinion that the use of forms declared to be less acceptable by a percentage of society has resulted in little practical value.

But that's a long way from the topic. I think we're beating a dead horse.