M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
These types of threads are always challenging, and always depressing to find out abhorrent behavior from a cherished contributor. I've never been a fan of Tekumel or Barker, just never got into it at all, even if I knew what it was.

The challenging part is everyone has different lines in the sand. Some seem obvious, some not so much, and nearly everyone has a different thing they consider deal-breaking. It's why I am hesitant to call anyone a Nazi-sympathizer for enjoying the product separate from the person. It may seem that way to me at times, but there is a big slippery slope.

If you're a nazi sympathizer for continuing to enjoy Tekumel as a product, does that also mean..
..you're a racist for enjoying Lovecraft?
..you're anti-trans for enjoying Harry Potter?
..you're pro-child molestation for enjoying Michael Jackson music?
..you're pro-child abuse for enjoying David Eddings books?
..you're a misogynist for enjoying D&D because Gygax invented it?

I suspect only each individual can make that choice, even if I suspect most people, even those who enjoy the works above, do not support any of those abhorrent beliefs.
I'm sorry, but this is just a mischaracterization of what's going on. A huge false dichotomy. No one is calling fans of Barker's work Nazi-sympathizers for enjoying his books. No one is doing that. The answer to all of those questions is pretty obviously a big "No, of course not, that would be ridiculous".

If you are a Nazi-sympathizer for defending, supporting, and praising Barker after it became public information that he was a Nazi-sympathizer and Holocaust-denier, does that also mean . . .
. . . you're racist for supporting, defending, and praising Lovecraft and his legacy, a blatantly racist man that supported Hitler?
. . . you're transphobic for supporting, defending, and praising Rowling after she made her anti-trans comments online?
. . . you're pro-child molestation for supporting, defending, and praising Michael Jackson and his legacy after it came out that he was a pedophile?
. . . you're a misogynist for supporting, defending, and praising Gygax and his legacy once you learned that he was sexist?

The answer to all of those questions is an absolute "YES!"

Enjoying the product of a horrible person does not make you a horrible person, but defending, supporting, and praising the horrible person after learning how awful they were does make you a horrible person.

You're a Nazi-sympathizer if you support, defend, and praise a Nazi-sympathizer after learning the extent of their awful nature. You're not a Nazi-sympathizer if you enjoy the things produced by the Nazi-sympathizer while acknowledging how awful of a person they were.

That is the dichotomy. It's not "if you like the things they made, you're an awful person", it's "if you continue to support, defend, and praise the person that made those things after learning how bad they were, you're an awful person".
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
I'm sorry, but this is just a mischaracterization of what's going on. A huge false dichotomy. No one is calling fans of Barker's work Nazi-sympathizers for enjoying his books. No one is doing that. The answer to all of those questions is pretty obviously a big "No, of course not, that would be ridiculous".
I was talking in general terms. Conversations on this topic, not just this one conversation.
I also think you're gonna find some disagreement with:

. . . you're a misogynist for supporting, defending, and praising Gygax and his legacy once you learned that he was sexist

The answer to all of those questions is an absolute "YES!"

Lots of people defend Gygax's legacy and his contributions while not defending his sexist comments. You're saying they are misogynist for doing so.

That's where the "I suspect that line will be different based on person" because it gets awfully muddled.
 

Levistus's_Leviathan

5e Freelancer
Lots of people defend Gygax's legacy and his contributions while not defending his sexist comments. You're saying they are misogynist for doing so.

That's where the "I suspect that line will be different based on person" because it gets awfully muddled.
You can't divorce Gygax's sexist comments and implementations of his sexism in the game from his legacy. It is a part of his legacy. Defending his legacy is defending his sexism, because his sexism is a part of his legacy. You can defend, support, and praise his creations (D&D) while acknowledging that he wasn't a great person. But supporting him and his legacy is supporting his sexism.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I'm sorry, but this is just a mischaracterization of what's going on. A huge false dichotomy. No one is calling fans of Barker's work Nazi-sympathizers for enjoying his books. No one is doing that. The answer to all of those questions is pretty obviously a big "No, of course not, that would be ridiculous".

If you are a Nazi-sympathizer for defending, supporting, and praising Barker after it became public information that he was a Nazi-sympathizer and Holocaust-denier, does that also mean . . .
. . . you're racist for supporting, defending, and praising Lovecraft and his legacy, a blatant racist man that supported Hitler
. . . you're transphobic for supporting, defending, and praising Rowling after she made her anti-trans comments online?
. . . you're pro-child molestation for supporting, defending, and praising Michael Jackson and his legacy after it came out that he was a pedophile
. . . you're a misogynist for supporting, defending, and praising Gygax and his legacy once you learned that he was sexist

The answer to all of those questions is an absolute "YES!"

Enjoying the product of a horrible person does not make you a horrible person, but defending, supporting, and praising the horrible person after learning how awful they were does make you a horrible person.

You're a Nazi-sympathizer if you support, defend, and praise a Nazi-sympathizer after learning the extent of their awful nature. You're not a Nazi-sympathizer if you enjoy the things produced by the Nazi-sympathizer while acknowledging how awful of a person they were.

That is the dichotomy. It's not "if you like the things they made, you're an awful person", it's "if you continue to support, defend, and praise the person that made those things after learning how bad they were, you're an awful person".
It's more clear if you flip it to more positive or neutral traits if an artist:

- you can enjoy the works of Tolkien without being a Catholic

- you can enjoy the works of C. S. Lewis without being a Neoplatonist (though it helps)

- you can enjoy the works of Victor Hugo without being a Deist.

And so on and on. You don't need to assume the identity and beliefs of an artist to get something from them. But you should understand what they were.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
You can't divorce Gygax's sexist comments and implementations of his sexism in the game from his legacy. It is a part of his legacy. Defending his legacy is defending his sexism, because his sexism is a part of his legacy. You can defend, support, and praise his creations (D&D) while acknowledging that he wasn't a great person. But supporting him and his legacy is supporting his sexism.
You can't, but others can. That's my point. It's subjective, based on how an individual person feels. For example, I can see your point, but by doing so that means that Luke (and many others) are sexists. And I know he's not.

Things aren't as black and white as we like to make them be. Especially when people can't agree what exactly fits into what is legacy and what is not. By the logic you're using, anything bad someone does, says, or believes is part of their legacy that can't be divorced from them and they can never be defended or supported, and that lies a very dangerous road, because none of us are perfect. which means none of us can ever be defended or supported without you assuming they defend and support the negative things we've done.

It doesn't work that way.

Edited for clarity.
 

Hussar

Legend
You can't, but others can. That's my point. It's subjective, based on how an individual person feels. For example, I can see your point, but by doing so that means that Luke (and many others) are sexists. And I know he's not.

Things aren't as black and white as we like to make them be. Especially when people can't agree what exactly fits into what is legacy and what is not. By the logic you're using, anything bad someone does, says, or believes is part of their legacy that can't be divorced from them and they can never be defended or supported, and that lies a very dangerous road, because none of us are perfect. which means none of us can ever be defended or supported without you assuming they defend and support the negative things we've done.

It doesn't work that way.

Edited for clarity.
The difference is, you're claiming that if you say someone is, say, sexist, then that person is just bad. That we should condemn that person. That's not true. Someone being a sexist doesn't really mean that they weren't brilliantly creative, or absolutely terrible at business.

The point that's being made here is that we should never hide the truth. The truth is, Gary Gygax included a considerable amount of sexism in his game. That's undeniable. Taking it further and calling Gary Gygax sexist is about blame and generally is rather pointless.

However, this isn't about Tekumel. It's actually specifically about Barker himself. He was a Holocaust denier. That seems pretty true. And, as such, should be known about him.

So much evil in the world is because we are afraid to confront the fact that many, MANY people out there that are held up in high esteem really shouldn't be. The only reason they get held up this way is because of lies. Whether flagrant lies or lies of omission, it's still lying. And for what? Why is it better to protect the false memory of someone rather than let the truth be known? Who is really being protected here?
 

Sacrosanct

Legend
The difference is, you're claiming that if you say someone is, say, sexist, then that person is just bad. That we should condemn that person. That's not true.
It's not true because that's not what I'm saying. the post you quoted was in direct response to this:

. . . you're racist for supporting, defending, and praising Lovecraft and his legacy, a blatant racist man that supported Hitler
. . . you're transphobic for supporting, defending, and praising Rowling after she made her anti-trans comments online?
. . . you're pro-child molestation for supporting, defending, and praising Michael Jackson and his legacy after it came out that he was a pedophile
. . . you're a misogynist for supporting, defending, and praising Gygax and his legacy once you learned that he was sexist

The answer to all of those questions is an absolute "YES!"

Which does seem to be saying that if you support or defend a person who may have said or done -ist things, then you're an -ist as well. Which goes back to my overall point that the lines we draw are subjective and vary from person to person, we should proceed with caution before making those assertions. I'm not saying we can't make them, only to use them with caution.
 


Dire Bare

Legend
You can't divorce Gygax's sexist comments and implementations of his sexism in the game from his legacy. It is a part of his legacy. Defending his legacy is defending his sexism, because his sexism is a part of his legacy. You can defend, support, and praise his creations (D&D) while acknowledging that he wasn't a great person. But supporting him and his legacy is supporting his sexism.
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree with this.

HP Lovecraft, MAR (Phil) Barker, Gary Gygax . . . all complicated people, in the same sense that we are all complicated people. Having aspects of your personality and beliefs be problematic doesn't make you automatically a "horrible person", nor does it make folks who admire you "horrible people".

HP Lovecraft was hella racist. He was also mentally ill. He was a miserable man leading a miserable life. You can be a fan of Lovecraft's work, and even admire the man, while still acknowledging and rejecting his racism. I respect and admire Lovecraft as an author, I feel sorry for him as a person, and his embrace of racist ideas saddens me. I doubt I would have enjoyed his company or friendship if we lived at the same time and place.

Gary Gygax was "grandpa-racist" and "grandpa-sexist" . . . he held the kinds of racist and sexist views common amongst white dudes of his time. I doubt Gygax considered himself racist or sexist, and his views were shaped by his upbringing and experiences. Doesn't excuse them, of course. Gygax, IMO, wasn't even that great of a game designer, he just happened to capture lightning-in-a-bottle with Dave Arneson. I don't have a great deal of admiration for Gygax as an artist or designer, although I do respect and am grateful for his contribution to my favorite hobby. Gygax was not a horrible person . . . but also not worthy of hero worship either, IMO. So many better game designers in our hobby, both as designers and as people.

MAR Barker, Phil, was an odd academic who created a detailed world that appeals to a very small fanbase. Even before we learned of his involvement with racism, I wasn't much of a fan of his work as an author and world-builder. Without defending his actions, we still don't know a lot of the details of exactly HOW racist he was, but we know enough to be saddened and uncomfortable with his work. Being on the editorial board of a problematic academic journal isn't a good look, but isn't proof Barker was a Nazi-sympathizer. His "secret" novel isn't necessarily either, I'd have to read it or read a synopsis/review from a trusted source to judge . . . but it's not worth the effort to find out. Barker may have been no more or less racist than other white academic dudes of his time, but harbored odd ideas of how to engage or deal with Nazism. His novel, regardless of his reasons for writing it, is highly problematic. I wasn't impressed with him before, I'm less so now, but I'm also not willing to judge him as a secret Nazi-sympathizer quite yet. Barker might have been a horrible person, but I don't know enough to judge him yet, and I also don't care enough to dig deeper. His impact on society is limited. I actually was recently considering picking up his Tekumel novels out of curiosity . . . but my interest has soured, after this recent news about the man.

My mixed views on Lovecraft, Gygax, and Barker doesn't make me a horrible person, an apologist for horrible people, a sexist, racist, or a Nazi apologist. If any of these gentlemen were still alive today, I wouldn't be engaging with them, I likely wouldn't be purchasing their works, I wouldn't be attending conventions with them as major guests. But I also don't feel the need to put them in the neat little boxes of "horrible person".
 

Hussar

Legend
Thank you @Dire Bare for saying what I wanted to say, much better than I could say it.

The only point I would add, which I did badly the last time, is that we should never be afraid to learn more about people. "Oh, this happened a long time ago.." or "He's dead, leave him be..." or various other ways of putting it are not the way forward. We should recognize both the good and the bad. Barker did have a significant role in the early days of the hobby. There's no denying that. And, we should recognize that. Same as we should recognize, say, someone like Lovecraft for their contributions to the genre.

Again, no one can deny that Lovecraft played a huge role in the genre.

But, by the same token, we should also recognize that some of these people held some very, very icky beliefs. And maybe, just maybe, while we should recognize their contributions, it shouldn't be done in such a way as to ignore, hide or bury that fact. Giving out a Fantasy Award statue to a black writer that's a bust of the head of Lovecraft is probably not the best idea. Maybe, for example, and I know this is a bit of a hot button topic, but, when we write a list of "Inspirational Reading" for D&D, we leave off some of these authors. In a list of "Founders of the Genre" or an academic study of the genre, sure, these guys should be right up there.

I guess I'm saying that there is a time and place for things. Telling a new to the hobby 13 year old girl of mixed heritage that Lovecraft is a great place to start reading when getting into the genre is maybe not the best idea. Maybe we don't tout the 1e PHB as the best place to get into D&D for that girl too.

That doesn't mean that Gygax or Lovecraft or Barker aren't influential. They are. Obviously they are. But, again, time and place.
 

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