M.A.R. Barker, author of Tekumel, also author of Neo-Nazi book?

[pemerton]

Because I believe in personal autonomy and consent. YMMV.

You seem to be equating arranged marriages with forced marriages. That seems like a contentious equation.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

You seem to be equating arranged marriages with forced marriages. That seems like a contentious equation.

….not really. This isn’t the forum or the thread for this conversation, but societies with a culturual recognition of arranged marriages (which, again, are patriarchal and regressive and largely unfriendly to the rights of people I care about) tend to have mechanisms … both hard and soft … to “encourage” them. It’s part and parcel of a bundle of norms - and, by the way, societies with arranged marriages are more likely to have “forced marriages,” either through law, violence, or threat of ostracism.

Again, this is my opinion, YMMV, but as a general rule if you are supportive of women’s rights, LGBTQA+ rights … or even human rights, you tend to be against arranged marriages as a cultural institution. if you think that’s wrong …instead of replying to me, why don’t you silently list, to yourself, the societies that have arranged marriages that prioritize the values that I have enumerated.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

I really don’t understand the whole discussion on “lampshading” in context of this thread.

Tekumel has built in many institutions and situations that are “bad” (slavery, explicit destruction done to local races by humans when they arrived). It also is pretty diverse in terms of human society and, in general, pretty sexually liberal.

It is a setting. Looking through the lens of the recent allegations (which seem to be true), maybe some things look worse than before it was known, but there really are no blatantly obvious Nazi images or beliefs in it.

 

[Umbran]

But, think about what you're saying here - all these ends and goals mean that the initial setup is never a "worker's paradise". The settings are never anything other than imperialistic, despotic tyrannies. Which we completely lampshade.

So.. nothing in between? It has to either be a worker's paradise, or an imperialistic, despotic tyranny?

 

[Mallus]

It is a setting. Looking through the lens of the recent allegations (which seem to be true), maybe some things look worse than before it was known, but there really are no blatantly obvious Nazi images or beliefs in it.

My first-hand experiences with Tekumel are limited to two novels Barker wrote, but in the first the protagonist is a human scholar raised by mantis-people. It didn't strike me as particularly pro-National Socialism.

 

[pemerton]

I certainly wouldn't care to live under a feudalistic system (however we define it), I'm hard pressed to categorize it among the ranks of as evil as it gets. Depending on the time period and the kingdom, even being a serf wasn't necessarily a miserable existence.

I would not be happy to suddenly be transported back to 19th century America, 13th century England, or 8th century BCE Greece. I'm no so keen on looking at the past through rose colored glasses, but at the same time I think it's a mistake to look at it as a crummy place where misery abounded (though that happened sometimes). They were human beings and they had joy, they had fun

Nothing in history compares to the industrial age of slaughter (ie the 19th-20th century) as modern technology made murder and misery so much more efficient.

It is tragically more common than many people realize.

I think "tragedy" is a strong word to describe the lives of 100s of millions of people who are living their lives as human beings, albeit in non-liberal cultural forms.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I think "tragedy" is a strong word to describe the lives of 100s of millions of people who are living their lives as human beings, albeit in non-liberal cultural forms.

“…tragically more common than many people realize.”

It is an open exercise….

1. Whether this (equating tragically more common with “tragedy”) is an accurate statement; and

2. Whether the individual I am responding to reflected on what I wrote when I noted that arranged marrriages, and the societies that produce them, inflict harm on people I care about.

 

[Fifth Element]

.

 

[Hussar]

So.. nothing in between? It has to either be a worker's paradise, or an imperialistic, despotic tyranny?

What setting isn’t a despotic, imperialistic tyranny?

 

[Umbran]

What setting isn’t a despotic, imperialistic tyranny?

That's dodging the question.

Edit to add: But, to answer your question - the default setting of Coyote & Crow isn't a despotic, imperialistic tyranny. Imperialism as we experienced it was cut off by world events, and didn't happen in that world.