M&M - Foot in the Door [Full]

[Gramcrackered]

Velmont:

1. Eole's got a Base Defense 6, eh? That plus the starting 10 and the 5 for your high Dexterity should give you a Defense of 21, Flat-Footed of 16 and Mental of 17. Not 15/10/11.

Looks like you did precisely the same thing with Base Attack though...which makes me suspect you simply forgot to add in the Base Defense and Attack. Or...er...you actively decided not to, for some reason.

Anyway. Melee Bonus should be +4, Ranged +9, Mental +5 as well.

2. Is the Fame bonus/penalty related to any special groups? Or is it just the stanard "+3 to Diplomacy for people who like super-heroes, -3 for people who don't?"
Just making sure.

3. Might as well drop off that Mental Link for now. While I will (probably) add your sister in later, it currently does you no good.
Speaking of which; how do you want to explain that in the meanwhile? Vacation? Not a superhero? Incapacitated? Trapped in Dimension X?

4. You've listed Create Element as an Extra; it's a Power Stunt. Speaking of which...you do realize the potential use for creating 10 5' cubes of air is pretty minimal, right? Barring travel underwater or in outerspace, I suppose.

5. Hrmmm. Generally rule that powers taken as extras under other powers have to be taken at the same rank as the base power. Thus, you wouldn't be able to take only 6 ranks of Deflection. Also a bit unsure about taking extras on an extra; not sure if I like that. Leads to some messy math and just feels sorta twinky.
If you find me a rule or example that shows you can do either or both of those, then feel free to. Otherwise, please change it.

Other than that last one (which, I admit, is a pretty big issue to raise), everything looks squared away.

 

[Gramcrackered]

Mark Chance:

1. You've double-listed Flat-Footed under your Stat Block. One of 'em's incorrect too.
*shrug*
Just figured I'd mention it.

2. Your ability scores total 34 pp, not 33. However, when you add up all your pp expenses it totals 150, which implies you just mistyped - except you took those two weaknesses, which means you still have 10 pp left over.
15 + 10 + 34 + 17 + 10 + 64 - 10 = 140.

 

[Gramcrackered]

Tokiwong:

1. Mental Attack should be +10, +11S with Mental Blast.

2. What's the power stunt "Mental Link" under Telepathy for/from? What's the
6pp" right next to it referring to? And shouldn't Telepathy cost 52 points total, not 62?

3. I assume you realize Protection under Super-Charisma will only works on males, right? Just thought I'd double-check.

Mainly, I'd like to know how in the world someone can use Teleport through Super-Charisma. I'm willing to give some flexibility with taking powers as extras even when it doesn't always add up, but that's a little silly.

Gimmie an explanation or you're gonna have to Teleport the standard way.

4. Background'd be good too.

Anyway. I think that's everyone; soon as I get responses from you guys, we can start.

 

[Tokiwong]

let me look it over... you seem a little narrow minded on what can be an extra of what considering the spirit of the rules...

 

[Gramcrackered]

Allow me to explain.

Some people like to have powers taken as extras for other powers. I guess I just don't. You see, I see your way as fitting the letter of the law, but NOT the spirit. I mean, when I look at the example characters in the book, I rarely see any powers taken as extras of other powers. I don't see ANY extras taken only partial ranks of other powers. That's because those characters were based around a concept...while players are usually more concerned with doing as much damage as possible.

If your way does fit the spirit, than give me an explanation. I'm willing to listen. Hell, I can even think of one, albeit a weak one - you throw it back at me and I'll accept it. Character can continue as planned, all well and good.

Thing is, I expect YOU to have one on your on. I mean, it should have been part of the character creation process, right? If you don't, than that leaves only one reason I can think for why you tied Teleport to Super-Charisma; it's cheaper that way. And there's nothing that grabs my attention more in Mutants and Masterminds than when I think someone is working to squeeze points.

Maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe you DO have a reason. Maybe you DID think of one while working on your character. If so, hey - I apologize in advance. All you gotta do is tell me it.

 

[Mark Chance]

Mark Chance:

1. You've double-listed Flat-Footed under your Stat Block. One of 'em's incorrect too.
*shrug*
Just figured I'd mention it.

2. Your ability scores total 34 pp, not 33. However, when you add up all your pp expenses it totals 150, which implies you just mistyped - except you took those two weaknesses, which means you still have 10 pp left over.
15 + 10 + 34 + 17 + 10 + 64 - 10 = 140.

The second flat-footed in for mental defense, which is based on Wisdom. The first is for physical defense, based on Dexterity, and it is a different number since Badgeface has Combat Sense.

For the weaknesses, I used the new rule in the Annual which breaks many weaknesses down into variable point categories. A moderate weakness is worth only 5 points, not 10.

 

[Velmont]

1. Eole's got a Base Defense 6, eh? That plus the starting 10 and the 5 for your high Dexterity should give you a Defense of 21, Flat-Footed of 16 and Mental of 17. Not 15/10/11.

Looks like you did precisely the same thing with Base Attack though...which makes me suspect you simply forgot to add in the Base Defense and Attack. Or...er...you actively decided not to, for some reason.

Anyway. Melee Bonus should be +4, Ranged +9, Mental +5 as well.

Oops, I just forgot to calculate.

2. Is the Fame bonus/penalty related to any special groups? Or is it just the stanard "+3 to Diplomacy for people who like super-heroes, -3 for people who don't?"
Just making sure.

My famous feat come from the fact that I am a famous cook. I had my own cook show (but finish last year, I didn't like that much), I have written some books, and I work in a famous restaurant. This feat is not linked to my powers yet, maybe someday.

3. Might as well drop off that Mental Link for now. While I will (probably) add your sister in later, it currently does you no good.
Speaking of which; how do you want to explain that in the meanwhile? Vacation? Not a superhero? Incapacitated? Trapped in Dimension X?

I see I forgot to write his background... I'll do that this week-end.

For the sister, if I doesn't have the link, I could simply not have found her yet. I may be famous, but that doesn't mean she will know I am her brother, so we may just not have found each other yet, knowing only that I have one, but the legal administration don't want to give me any information on her.

4. You've listed Create Element as an Extra; it's a Power Stunt. Speaking of which...you do realize the potential use for creating 10 5' cubes of air is pretty minimal, right? Barring travel underwater or in outerspace, I suppose.

Now, your mistake that. it is Create Elemental extra (or can be read as Animation: Gas), which is a normal extra.

5. Hrmmm. Generally rule that powers taken as extras under other powers have to be taken at the same rank as the base power. Thus, you wouldn't be able to take only 6 ranks of Deflection. Also a bit unsure about taking extras on an extra; not sure if I like that. Leads to some messy math and just feels sorta twinky.
If you find me a rule or example that shows you can do either or both of those, then feel free to. Otherwise, please change it.

Ok, for the rank problem, just level everything to 8. It won't change the power cost. It would give something like:

ELEMENTAL CONTROL: AIR [+10 pp/rank+6, 86 total] 8 Ranks
- SOURCE: Mutation
- SPECIAL:
- EXTRAS: Create Elemental, Elemental Movement, Elemental Shield, Deflection (extra: Rapid x2, Reflection x2, stunt: Deflection Bonus: Projectiles)
- STUNTS: Elemental Snare, Suffocate

Now, if you don't like the idea of extras on extras. I have seen that use by many master without problem. Maybe one note, the deflection would be up only with the Elemental Shield, as a kind of whirwlind around me that deflect everything coming to him, or, if unbale, have slow it down and absorbed some of it velocity. As it is linked to the shield, it is for this reason I wanted to link it to Elemental Control. If Elemental Control is drain, my deflection will be drain too and things like that...

 

[Velmont]

I mean, when I look at the example characters in the book, I rarely see any powers taken as extras of other powers.

I understand your point of view, but have you take a look as the Liberty League.

- Lady Liberty have Deflection(Deflect Other) as an extra of Energy Control(Light).
- Siren have Mental Control (Area, Marine-life only) as an extra of Elemental Control (Water)
- Captain Thunder have Animation (Electrical Devices only) as an extra of Energy Control (Electricity)

And I'm not talking of Daedalus' Armor and Dr Metro's City Control... and if you take a look at Crooks or Freedom City, if I remember well, there are plenty of example like that. So, if you stick that much to the rule, I'm not sure half of the hero/villain in GR books could be created.

Now, the only thing I want to be sure, it is that the same rules applied to everyone, villain too.

For partial extras and flaws, yeap, that's ture, I see no example at all in the book, even if they mention about it.

 

[Kevin Perrine]

I understand your point of view, but have you take a look as the Liberty League.

- Lady Liberty have Deflection(Deflect Other) as an extra of Energy Control(Light).
- Siren have Mental Control (Area, Marine-life only) as an extra of Elemental Control (Water)
- Captain Thunder have Animation (Electrical Devices only) as an extra of Energy Control (Electricity)


For partial extras and flaws, yeap, that's ture, I see no example at all in the book, even if they mention about it.

the partial extras and flaws all come from the M&M boards. Steve Kenson himself suggested them. And I believe they talk all about them in the new Annual.

for the Extras under Extras and Powers as Extras, and your idea of not breaking the "concept"... my example has been:

think of SPIDERMAN
Spidey's powers all come from the common source (a radioactive spider bite) except for his web shooters.
So Point-Break or NOT all of those powers are based off one another.

another example similar to my FULCRUM would be the HULK.
His LEAPING power is built directly off of his SUPER STRENGTH because it's his powerful muscles making him be able to leap.


the pros and cons
When you build powers as Extras off one another I feel that it's MORE TRUE to the concept than building them seperately. Mostly because if you take away one you take away the others.
In the HULK example - if you take away his SStr he's NOT going to be able to still super LEAP... right?
It's actually SAFER for player characters to build the character like you do (without being Extras of one another) because they AREN'T subject to Drains all at the same time.
In my mind THAT breaks the concept.

Many times there will be no point-break in cost if a power already costs 1 pt it won't change. So cost isn't a factor in this way of building much.

it's concept.

but as I said - I'll do whatever is wanted, it's your game.
I'm just trying to lend a better understanding of the reasons for this style of building.

-kev-

 

[Gramcrackered]

The second flat-footed in for mental defense, which is based on Wisdom. The first is for physical defense, based on Dexterity, and it is a different number since Badgeface has Combat Sense.

Ah. Gotcha.

For the weaknesses, I used the new rule in the Annual which breaks many weaknesses down into variable point categories. A moderate weakness is worth only 5 points, not 10.

Knew that - s'why I only subtracted 10 at the end of the list. Less I messed something up, your total pp still stands at 140, not 150. Got my math at the bottom of my post, taken directly from the totals on your sheet.

Now, your mistake that. it is Create Elemental extra (or can be read as Animation: Gas), which is a normal extra.

Dang. That element/elemental difference keeps messing me up.



Fulcrum/Velmont: The thing you guys keep missing is that I have no problem with taking powers as extras of other powers - provided the powers make sense to be linked.
Hulk's leaping comes from strength. Right. Makes sense.
Spidey's swinging (increased movement) comes from his webbing. Righto. No problem there.
Fulcrum's super-speed comes from his...super...strength?
*furrows brow*
Sorry. Just doesn't make much sense to me. I mean, how does being strong make you run fast? Suppose he could jump all the while...
*scratches head*
That one could be debated either way, so, like I said - I'm willing to just let it go. Especially since you've been so cooperative, Kevin, considering how much I picked over the sheet I got from you.

Point is, there are some powers-within-powers that just seem...well...bizarre. And vaguely twinkish. And surely you have to admit, players don't always tie powers to other powers simply because they think it makes sense. That a sometimes large reduction in cost at a relatively minor penalty (weakness to foes with a draining ability) has quite some appeal. Especially if that power would normally cost 4 or more per rank on its own.