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Macguffin quest without a macguffin, how would you respond?
- Thread starter Kahuna Burger
- Start date
Bloosquig
First Post
I would have to have some sort of closure. If you ended the campaign with, "And the big evil just gets bigger and smaller on some sort of cycle based off of the movement of the plane Durzaboil" I'd be pissed. But then I'd find a way to mess with the movement of the plane Durzaboil. ![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
So if you take away their mcguffin give them a new one or let them go down fighting or something equally memorable because depending on your players this could make some people very angry.
So if you take away their mcguffin give them a new one or let them go down fighting or something equally memorable because depending on your players this could make some people very angry.
Blue
Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
To "me too" like an AOLer, I'd be fine with "what I thought was the goal wasn't the goal", but very, very unfine with "it didn't matter if I was even here".
Reminds me of an adventure in a group I had dropped out of. Big things happening, and the DM ends up taking the characters on a 7 session dead-end at the urging of his GMPC. That was 4 real-life months of game play (met biweekly) that was basically the GM denying the PCs a chance to affect the main plot. Regardless of how much fun it was, every single player was pissed and still talks about it years later.
PCs are the protagonists of the story. If the PCs end up being not being important and the calendar is the hero of the story, the players will be wondering "why did we even bother".
Getting back to it, if it turns out that all this research and investigation that the macguffin isn't real, but that same reveals "macguffin mark II" - something ELSE that the PCs can do to help defeat YOAE, I'd have a blast. Plot twists are good. If you're taking away the (perceived) major goal of the campaign, you need to replace it with something as big or bigger to keep the players happy.
Cheers,
=Blue(23)
Reminds me of an adventure in a group I had dropped out of. Big things happening, and the DM ends up taking the characters on a 7 session dead-end at the urging of his GMPC. That was 4 real-life months of game play (met biweekly) that was basically the GM denying the PCs a chance to affect the main plot. Regardless of how much fun it was, every single player was pissed and still talks about it years later.
PCs are the protagonists of the story. If the PCs end up being not being important and the calendar is the hero of the story, the players will be wondering "why did we even bother".
Getting back to it, if it turns out that all this research and investigation that the macguffin isn't real, but that same reveals "macguffin mark II" - something ELSE that the PCs can do to help defeat YOAE, I'd have a blast. Plot twists are good. If you're taking away the (perceived) major goal of the campaign, you need to replace it with something as big or bigger to keep the players happy.
Cheers,
=Blue(23)
I ran a campaign once (not D&D: modern-day stuff) in which the PCs went on a protracted and very gruelling seven-part Mcguffin hunt, got put through the wringer, went mad, despaired etc. The international economy had collapsed, huge earthquakes had levelled LA and Tokyo. There was nuclear winter because of a limited nuclear exchange between the USSR and the USA. When the going got tough, one killed himself suicide-bombing a secondary villain, three collapsed into ineffectual wrecks, and two got going. They collected the set, they did what had to be done... and the BBEG didn't show up. They never did work out whether their efforts had prevented the end of the world or whether the whole thing was a wild goose chase.
My friends consider that campaign the best thing I have ever run.
My friends consider that campaign the best thing I have ever run.
Add my voice to the others that have 'I wouldn't mind discovering that the MacGuffin didn't exist but I would want the quest to have a purpose'.
So I discover the Uber-Maga-Weapon of Mega-Uberness didn't exist; that's fine. I still want the quest to have had a useful purpose though. I want my Hero who is traveleing with the Band Of Heroes to have a meaning to have gone on the quest and I would want the fact that we went on the quest to have an impact on the events we were trying to stop. otherwise, what was the point of the last X sessions?
Maybe we learn that we can't kill the Darkened Evil of Darkness itself but we learn a way to stop THIS attack that it had planned. The next generation is on their own though.
Maybe we learn that the Evil itself never really existed but was a ploy by the real BBEG to get the town to follow him.
Maybe we learn that it wasn't the weapon itself but what the weapon did that made the difference (it wasn't that it was Hero's Sword that was special but the fact that the sword was on fire - so any flaming weapon will fit the bill).
Any of these would be fine substitutes to finding the MacGuffin. At leats with these the quest was worthwhile and the good guys benefited from the fact that the quest took place. If the entire quest turned out to be pointless I would likely not be happy.
So I discover the Uber-Maga-Weapon of Mega-Uberness didn't exist; that's fine. I still want the quest to have had a useful purpose though. I want my Hero who is traveleing with the Band Of Heroes to have a meaning to have gone on the quest and I would want the fact that we went on the quest to have an impact on the events we were trying to stop. otherwise, what was the point of the last X sessions?
Maybe we learn that we can't kill the Darkened Evil of Darkness itself but we learn a way to stop THIS attack that it had planned. The next generation is on their own though.
Maybe we learn that the Evil itself never really existed but was a ploy by the real BBEG to get the town to follow him.
Maybe we learn that it wasn't the weapon itself but what the weapon did that made the difference (it wasn't that it was Hero's Sword that was special but the fact that the sword was on fire - so any flaming weapon will fit the bill).
Any of these would be fine substitutes to finding the MacGuffin. At leats with these the quest was worthwhile and the good guys benefited from the fact that the quest took place. If the entire quest turned out to be pointless I would likely not be happy.
green slime
First Post
Crothian said:As long as the campaign is fun it wouldn't matter that much to me. I'm pretty easy to please though.
I second that opinion.
Secondly, that information in and of itself is kind of important to know: that it is actually possible to defeat the Evil without the MacGuffin.
Obergnom
First Post
hmm,
I like the basic idea. Of course, ending a campaign with: Sorry, did not matter at all would be a total desaster. But I think you could create a fine campaign and a superb ending, out of the basics.
A long campaign of searching hints and following those hints. Speaking to members of an old order who seem to know how to find more information about this weapon, sending the PCs into the darkest corners of the world... then you find out, there is no "ultimate weapon" or what ever. But the great evil is still there.
The PCs will realize, they, allongside of all other heroes of the world (who should be of a lower power level than the PCs by now) will have to start a fight, allthough they will not stand a chance. (Or so they think, they spend the last X sessions finding clue after clue how undefeatable the ancient evil is...) but being D&D Character of maybe Epic Levels, they actually will have a chance to win this Epic fight.
I can imagine my group RPing the walk into their doom, suspecting this battle to be the end of the campaign... and winning. Would be fun, I think.
Later on, they might even figure out, that what they have to do now, is create a new big riddle (Like creating a new order of schoolars who know just enough to send the new heroes to the dark corners of the world), an endless quest, able to train and equip heroes in the far distant future to be able to defeat the ancient evil again...
I like the basic idea. Of course, ending a campaign with: Sorry, did not matter at all would be a total desaster. But I think you could create a fine campaign and a superb ending, out of the basics.
A long campaign of searching hints and following those hints. Speaking to members of an old order who seem to know how to find more information about this weapon, sending the PCs into the darkest corners of the world... then you find out, there is no "ultimate weapon" or what ever. But the great evil is still there.
The PCs will realize, they, allongside of all other heroes of the world (who should be of a lower power level than the PCs by now) will have to start a fight, allthough they will not stand a chance. (Or so they think, they spend the last X sessions finding clue after clue how undefeatable the ancient evil is...) but being D&D Character of maybe Epic Levels, they actually will have a chance to win this Epic fight.
I can imagine my group RPing the walk into their doom, suspecting this battle to be the end of the campaign... and winning. Would be fun, I think.
Later on, they might even figure out, that what they have to do now, is create a new big riddle (Like creating a new order of schoolars who know just enough to send the new heroes to the dark corners of the world), an endless quest, able to train and equip heroes in the far distant future to be able to defeat the ancient evil again...
green slime
First Post
Nifft said:
Well, yeah, that goes without saying.
Eloi
First Post
This would probably lead to an Epic campaign, focused on the goal, "Make the MacGuffin".
And then that whole "Chasing Down The YOAE" campaign arc, four or five very satisfying sessions in which the players can possibly recover lost allies while hunting. Tying up a few loose ends in ways that make the characters' lengthy efforts worthwhile, running into the few bad guys that had managed to escape previous Do-Gooding incursions, and relishing the shocked looks on their faces.. Good stuff.
And then that whole "Chasing Down The YOAE" campaign arc, four or five very satisfying sessions in which the players can possibly recover lost allies while hunting. Tying up a few loose ends in ways that make the characters' lengthy efforts worthwhile, running into the few bad guys that had managed to escape previous Do-Gooding incursions, and relishing the shocked looks on their faces.. Good stuff.
Kahuna Burger
First Post
Thanks for all the responses, most confirm my feeling of where the series stops being a good background for a campaign... Some clarifications and answers :
The series is the Darwath Trilogy by Barbara Hambly, starting with The Time of the Dark. Certain parts of it didn't stand up to my most recent reading well - I'd sort of gotten tired of the emotionaly stunted Mary Sue and her Octegenarian Ubermensch lover (which Hambly has gotten past since) and the ending is exactly the sort of thing people are warning against here, but it still has a lot to recomend it.
The "schedule" on which YOAE rises and falls isn;t one the PCs would be willing to wait out or that would pass without them noticing - the last rising lasted several genertions.
I meant to make it clear in the first post that the PCs will gain nformation about YOAE in their search that will allow them to consider their own plan of attack.
While the Macguffin is generally thought to be the solution to defeating YOAE, that is not the only possible goal in the campaign. There are refugees to be protected (from YOAE and the elements), a realm to hold together (or overthrown depending on how the PCs feel about the current regent), threats from a rival culture which as yet has not suffered from YOAE and may be willing to come "help" them through their troubles, etc.
Thanks again for all the responses.
The series is the Darwath Trilogy by Barbara Hambly, starting with The Time of the Dark. Certain parts of it didn't stand up to my most recent reading well - I'd sort of gotten tired of the emotionaly stunted Mary Sue and her Octegenarian Ubermensch lover (which Hambly has gotten past since) and the ending is exactly the sort of thing people are warning against here, but it still has a lot to recomend it.
The "schedule" on which YOAE rises and falls isn;t one the PCs would be willing to wait out or that would pass without them noticing - the last rising lasted several genertions.
I meant to make it clear in the first post that the PCs will gain nformation about YOAE in their search that will allow them to consider their own plan of attack.
While the Macguffin is generally thought to be the solution to defeating YOAE, that is not the only possible goal in the campaign. There are refugees to be protected (from YOAE and the elements), a realm to hold together (or overthrown depending on how the PCs feel about the current regent), threats from a rival culture which as yet has not suffered from YOAE and may be willing to come "help" them through their troubles, etc.
Thanks again for all the responses.
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