It is assumed that the rogue has all the tactile capability necessary to do the tasks through use of the mage hand. It is a special use of the cantrip that only an Arcane Trickster has mastered.
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D&D 5E Mage Hand and the No Good, Low Down, Dirty Rotten Arcane Trickster
- Thread starter Syntallah
- Start date
It is assumed that the rogue has all the tactile capability necessary to do the tasks through use of the mage hand. It is a special use of the cantrip that only an Arcane Trickster has mastered.
Warmaster Horus
Explorer
I understand what you mean but wouldn't penalize using the Mage Hand or even touch-related activities (you can pick pockets with it, which is a very sensitive operation) for the Arcane Trickster. However SEEING and HEARING the workings of a lock or trap at 30', well, that would be problematic, eh?
Yes, you are being too harsh in my opinion.
By taking this sub-class, he's basically telling you that having things blow up point-blank isn't "dramatic" to him... it's just irritating. Drama comes from having to make hard or fast decisions-- a trap that goes off and starts filling up a room with gas forcing the entire party to figure out how to survive it over the next couple rounds is dramatic. Rolling poorly on a disarm check and then just getting told "Glyph blows up... take 20 damage" isn't dramatic in my opinion. If you want drama out of traps... those really aren't it.
Now... if you want to impose Disadvantage on certain disarm checks because of the situation he finds himself in when he's having to do it... like for instance the room has a half-dozen scythes swinging back and forth across the room and he's trying to Mage Hand disarm the trap on the far side of them but keeps getting his sight blocked... then that's cool. He's getting Disadvantage because the check calls for it. But having *all* ranged checks as Disadvantage simply because you don't want to give up the "needle springs out and hits your finger-- 10 points" kind of trap is kinda meh.
The way he designed his character is an indication of the kind of game he's looking to play. In my opinion it's our job as DMs to facilitate that gameplay, rather than cut it off at the knees.
By taking this sub-class, he's basically telling you that having things blow up point-blank isn't "dramatic" to him... it's just irritating. Drama comes from having to make hard or fast decisions-- a trap that goes off and starts filling up a room with gas forcing the entire party to figure out how to survive it over the next couple rounds is dramatic. Rolling poorly on a disarm check and then just getting told "Glyph blows up... take 20 damage" isn't dramatic in my opinion. If you want drama out of traps... those really aren't it.
Now... if you want to impose Disadvantage on certain disarm checks because of the situation he finds himself in when he's having to do it... like for instance the room has a half-dozen scythes swinging back and forth across the room and he's trying to Mage Hand disarm the trap on the far side of them but keeps getting his sight blocked... then that's cool. He's getting Disadvantage because the check calls for it. But having *all* ranged checks as Disadvantage simply because you don't want to give up the "needle springs out and hits your finger-- 10 points" kind of trap is kinda meh.
The way he designed his character is an indication of the kind of game he's looking to play. In my opinion it's our job as DMs to facilitate that gameplay, rather than cut it off at the knees.
The ability to make ranged Thieves' Tools checks is one of the Arcane Trickster's archetype abilities, and you're smacking it with blanket disadvantage. If you really don't like it, I suggest allowing him to swap it out for the Thief or Assassin ability of the same level.Just kidding
The pertinent parts of the Mage Hand spell:
“…You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it…” I, as DM, am using a Sage Advice adjudication from some years ago that Mage Hand can manipulate an object as if a human was doing so with one hand. So, you can throw a lever or knock a mug off a counter, but you can’t thread a needle.
And now for the point: I have ruled that the Arcane Trickster in my group will make any at distance Thievery checks using his Mage Hand at Disadvantage. My reasoning is A) Game balance, Mage Hand is a cantrip, the lowest level magic in the Game and B) there is absolutely no risk or drama if he makes every disable trap check or open locks check from 30ft away. I might as well never add a single trap to anything ever again.
Now, my player was a bit upset about my ruling and asked me to check around the boards. So, without further ado, I ask the august body of ENworlders: am I being too harsh on him?
However, I don't agree with your reasoning. The whole point of a trap is that you don't know it's there until it whacks you. Once the party spots the trap, the threat is largely (though not entirely) eliminated; they can take protective measures before attempting to disarm it, and usually do. It's the traps you don't spot that are the real threat, and the Arcane Trickster ability doesn't help with those.
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Of course it's your prerogative to house rule in disadvantage, but I wouldn't. It's a basic and cool feature of the trickster, and nerfing it takes some of the cool factor away from the class. Sure, it will negate some traps and such. But that's the cool part of having the trickster. Much like one of the cool parts of having a ranger is that you can never get lost. Heck, I not only wouldn't stop putting traps in, I'd make sure they were in there to give that character an opportunity to shine. For the same reason, I wouldn't make every trap explode past the 30ft range.
Of course, here's the devious way one makes traps still relevant on occasion:
1) Not all traps will be easily detected. Sooner or later one just opens the wrong door or doesn't find the trap even when you look. Just throw in the occasional high difficulty find.
2) Not all traps can be disabled with thieves tools.
3) Sometimes, it's not the damage from the trap that matters. It's the noise. The alarm going off. The enemies being alerted.
4) Sometimes you aren't worried about the traps hurting you. You're worried about what it does to the item you want that the trap is protecting. The very valuable scrolls burn up! The valuable carvings are shattered!
5) From time to time, you can't be 30ft away because you only have line of sight when you are close. Tunnel turns a sharp corner, goes 5ft and there's a trapped door. Or, the trap requires crawling down a narrow crawlspace. Etc. etc.
6) And sure, from time to time, the whole ceiling collapses or the room fills with poision gas and 30ft isn't much help.
There's lots of ways traps are still fun. Just make sure that there are opportunities for them to use their super cool 'bomb defusion robot' that keeps everyone safe.
Just my two cents.
AD
Of course, here's the devious way one makes traps still relevant on occasion:
1) Not all traps will be easily detected. Sooner or later one just opens the wrong door or doesn't find the trap even when you look. Just throw in the occasional high difficulty find.
2) Not all traps can be disabled with thieves tools.
3) Sometimes, it's not the damage from the trap that matters. It's the noise. The alarm going off. The enemies being alerted.
4) Sometimes you aren't worried about the traps hurting you. You're worried about what it does to the item you want that the trap is protecting. The very valuable scrolls burn up! The valuable carvings are shattered!
5) From time to time, you can't be 30ft away because you only have line of sight when you are close. Tunnel turns a sharp corner, goes 5ft and there's a trapped door. Or, the trap requires crawling down a narrow crawlspace. Etc. etc.
6) And sure, from time to time, the whole ceiling collapses or the room fills with poision gas and 30ft isn't much help.
There's lots of ways traps are still fun. Just make sure that there are opportunities for them to use their super cool 'bomb defusion robot' that keeps everyone safe.
Just my two cents.
AD
SilverfireSage
Explorer
Yeah after rereading the feature it seems this was the purpose of it along. So for an arcane trickster he should be good to go, but anyone else using Mage hand that way would be disadvantaged. Put me back in the too harsh party as well.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Just kidding
The pertinent parts of the Mage Hand spell:
“…You can use your action to control the hand. You can use the hand to manipulate an object, open an unlocked door or container, stow or retrieve an item from an open container, or pour the contents out of a vial. You can move the hand up to 30 feet each time you use it…” I, as DM, am using a Sage Advice adjudication from some years ago that Mage Hand can manipulate an object as if a human was doing so with one hand. So, you can throw a lever or knock a mug off a counter, but you can’t thread a needle.
And now for the point: I have ruled that the Arcane Trickster in my group will make any at distance Thievery checks using his Mage Hand at Disadvantage. My reasoning is A) Game balance, Mage Hand is a cantrip, the lowest level magic in the Game and B) there is absolutely no risk or drama if he makes every disable trap check or open locks check from 30ft away. I might as well never add a single trap to anything ever again.
Now, my player was a bit upset about my ruling and asked me to check around the boards. So, without further ado, I ask the august body of ENworlders: am I being too harsh on him?
I think so, yeah. I mean, I can take unseen servant and trigger every trap in a 60' radius of myself, so if there's no risk or drama at 30', you're holding up risk and drama by a thread. And "game balance" is pretty vague in this context (what's so unbalanced about getting a lot of out of cantrip because you've taken a class that specifically gets a lot out of that cantrip?)
The thing that might make you both happy is to ramp up your trap game. 30' should be safer, but not safe. And triggering a trap should have effects like calling the dungeon down on the partys' heads or wrecking items in the room that make it unwelcome as well. Let them get past minor traps that are inconveniences or setbacks, but deadly and dangerous traps should still have some effect on them (perhaps halved).
BryonD
Hero
I think you are being way too harsh.
Mage Hand is a "minor" class ability. Mage Hand Legerdemain is a fundamental defining part of the trickster.
The fighter gets action surge at level 2. It is a strong ability, so by the same logic you could rule that all attacks when using action surge are at disadvantage. You could probably find a cool ability for just about any class and make that argument.
If you don't like it then so be it. It is your game. It simply falls to you to be so awesome in other parts of your DMing that the player is ok with getting the short end of it here.
I'd certainly hope you at least offer the option to reroll and share any other house rules *before* selection is made.
Mage Hand is a "minor" class ability. Mage Hand Legerdemain is a fundamental defining part of the trickster.
The fighter gets action surge at level 2. It is a strong ability, so by the same logic you could rule that all attacks when using action surge are at disadvantage. You could probably find a cool ability for just about any class and make that argument.
If you don't like it then so be it. It is your game. It simply falls to you to be so awesome in other parts of your DMing that the player is ok with getting the short end of it here.
I'd certainly hope you at least offer the option to reroll and share any other house rules *before* selection is made.
Psikerlord#
Explorer
At first I thought this^. But then read more and I see ATMH allows thieves tool use. So I would allow it but probably with disad, might depend on the kind of trap. If it's fiddly and would benefit from being up close to see what's going on - disad. If fairly simple and you can see fine from 30' then ordinary roll.
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Mouseferatu
Hero
Sorry, gotta go with the majority on this one. It's a primary subclass feature. Not allowing it as written is just penalizing people who choose the subclass. As a player, I'd rather a DM just disallow the subclass than do this.
