Magic deadly to the caster and allies

[Bullgrit]

I like the idea that magic is tricky and dangerous and will come back and bite you if you're not careful or don't kow what you're doing.

I always enjoyed the volume aspect of fireball, the bouncing lightning bolts, and other quirky parts of magic use.

I loved that stuff, it kept magic magical for me. Once it got reliable it just became a tool.

Fireball – fills 33 10’x10’x10’ cubes.

Lightning bolt – bounces back at the caster if it doesn’t reach full range.

Haste – ages the targets by one year (and therefore causes a system shock roll to avoid dying from it)*

I know there were some other higher level spells that also aged the caster and/or target, but I didn’t play a lot of high level AD&D, so they don’t come to mind automatically. In fact, if I remember correctly, the AD&D1 DMG had a specific list of such spells.

What other AD&D1 spells could be directly dangerous/deadly to the caster and/or his allies? (I’m not talking about spells that could indirectly be dangerous to the caster, like when a monster comes out of the effects of a charm person.)

And someone please explain how tricky and dangerous (to the caster) magic makes playing with magic, as a Player in a group game, makes the play more fun.

*It just dawned on me, did anyone try casting haste on an enemy spell caster? It wouldn’t really help him (as magic-users don’t typically make attacks), and MUs often had normal or not very high Cons, and so might fail their system shock roll and die outright. Could be better than a save or die spell.

Bullgrit
Total Bullgrit

 

[Humanaut]

For us, back in high school, it was the game in town you might say. So partly we just accepted it because it was "the rules".

As far as fun, it's akin to playing with fire... can be fun, can burn you bad. Sometimes failing spectacularly (Fireball backlash, or LB bounce) is just as fun as laying the smack down.

I kinda miss those from time to time.

 

[Remathilis]

And someone please explain how tricky and dangerous (to the caster) magic makes playing with magic, as a Player in a group game, makes the play more fun.

I imagine its the same sort of fun the skydiving is; the idea that there is an element of risk makes the rush of it working so much more exciting.

Of course, this is ignoring the fact that the mage is in a dungeon below the earth with vicious monsters wearing only a dress and carrying a butter-knife. Oh, did I mention the 1d4 hp? Its probably more akin to skydiving with a random chance you're parachute might actually be a Wile-E-Coyote Anvil...

Now, as a DM, dangerous magic is fantastic. There is a certain population of the DM spectrum who take great satisfaction in watching the PCs orchestrate their own demise. This is probably the same population of DMs who love "random fumble" charts...

 

[Humanaut]

mmm... fumble charts...

 

[Obryn]

In my 1e game, the party was fighting a giant snake. So the Magic-User whipped out his Sleep spell...

...putting the whole party to sleep, since the snake had more hit dice than they did.

The snake took this opportunity to eat the single party member he had already killed.

If it had been intelligent opponents, rather than just a big snake who'd gotten enough food already, this would have been a self-inflicted TPK. Harsh, but my players loved that there was a possibility for it.

-O

 

[gizmo33]

And someone please explain how tricky and dangerous (to the caster) magic makes playing with magic, as a Player in a group game, makes the play more fun.

I think originally the risks were supposed to balance the benefits. Fireballs could kill a lot of creatures, for example.

As far as fun, that's subjective. Why is it fun that monsters are trying to kill the PCs all of the time? Why is losing hitpoints fun? Why is getting killed fun? Why is knowing that your DM never will kill you fun? How is missing the target when I shoot an arrow fun? Maybe PCs should always hit, always kill when they hit, and always find a vorpal blade in every treasure pile. Seriously, I have no idea how to objectively answer any of these questions. Your questions and these are just a matter of preferences AFAICT. Maybe try playing a game with spell failure, spell mishaps, gnomes as PCs, and roll d6 for initiative, roll 3d6 for stats, and if you don't like, then obviously stop.

I don't know why people like country music, but why would I want them to explain it to me?

 

[Hella_Tellah]

And someone please explain how tricky and dangerous (to the caster) magic makes playing with magic, as a Player in a group game, makes the play more fun.http://www.totalbullgrit.com

I dunno. All I know is that nothing amuses me and the people I game with more than horrible, funny things happening to our hapless PCs. Magic that isn't inherently dangerous is pretty boring, from that perspective.

I'd say that the most memorable gaming moments for me have been the times when everything has gone completely, utterly wrong for the PCs. Judging from comments I see on ENworld, I think that's the case for most players. Rarely do I see a post about how awesome it was that the PCs did everything they wanted to and nothing went wrong.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Teleportation was rather risky if you were going to unknown places.

Dealing with "forces beyond the ken" were risky. For instance.

Contact Other Plane--chances of Insanity.

Conjure Elementals--for Mages, conjuring such beings had to be done in a protected circle. Don't have the circle or if they get broken and the elementals might attack you.

The various spells to summon demons and devils (Spiritwrack, Cacodemon, the Unearthed Arcana spells). Protection circles were needed if you were not a cleric. Many chances for things to go wrong could go wrong.

The Wish--It was a conjuration of epic sort--risky to ask the forces of the cosmos to fulfill your demands.

Also, certain metamagic or abjuration spells were risky--Mordenkainen's Disjunction--don't use it against an artifact or relic, or no more magic spells. Volley and the like had risks, Freedom could release a whole pack of imprisoned stuff.

Stuff like the Staff of a Magi absorbing spells could have risks. A helm of brilliance subjected to another mage's fireball?!

Being in Gaseous Form, Melded to Stone, in two-dimensional form, in a Magic Jar, etc, or being in Astral form had certain risks.

The very fact you had to do System Shock rolls for certain spells such as polymorphs made it risky if you played a mage with a weak Constitution score.

 

[grodog]

What other AD&D1 spells could be directly dangerous/deadly to the caster and/or his allies? (I’m not talking about spells that could indirectly be dangerous to the caster, like when a monster comes out of the effects of a charm person.)

A lot of spells could be dangerous in AD&D (or in any edition), especially if not fully-understood and/or misapplied: area effect spells like sleep, web, fireball, meteor swarm, death spell, cloudkill (one of the best arguments for memorizing gust of wind), etc. could easily catch some or all of the PCs in the area of effect; dimension doors requires you take a forced period of inactivity (most of a combat round) after using it, so if someone tries to ddoor to right behind a monster for a rear attack, they're likely instead to be caught with their pants down; identify temporarily drains 8 (!) points of CON, so casting it in the middle of a dungeon could be rather catastrophic for a low-CON MU; if you try to cast charm person on a creature that's not-charmable as a person (because many many humanoids were NOT persons to charm person/charm person or mammal spells and required charm monster), they may notice and, at the least, be ill-disposed toward you; etc.

And someone please explain how tricky and dangerous (to the caster) magic makes playing with magic, as a Player in a group game, makes the play more fun.

I agree with what's already been said: it adds that element of risk (or, in the case in the 1e group I'm playing in, it's a known factor/assumption that one player in particular will consistently fireball at least some of the PCs about every third session or so); it also keeps things deadly: if that lightning bolt hits the wall behind the EHP and ricochets back your way, it'll hit him twice---which is the intent, of course---but it just might hit you too, if you don't cast it just right....

*It just dawned on me, did anyone try casting haste on an enemy spell caster? It wouldn’t really help him (as magic-users don’t typically make attacks), and MUs often had normal or not very high Cons, and so might fail their system shock roll and die outright. Could be better than a save or die spell.

There's a recent discussion on this idea at Dragonsfoot, but FWIW, that's not an interpretation that I would use, since SS rolls only apply (in my mind, mind you ) to hostile magical aging attacks (like a ghost's attacks), and not to spell casting side-effects (as with haste, resurrection, wish, etc., etc.).

In case you're interested in the DF threads (the last one is the most current): Dragonsfoot • View topic - Haste spell and Dragonsfoot • View topic - Haste, age and die! and Dragonsfoot • View topic - Haste-an offensive spell?

 

[Lanefan]

Now, as a DM, dangerous magic is fantastic. There is a certain population of the DM spectrum who take great satisfaction in watching the PCs orchestrate their own demise. This is probably the same population of DMs who love "random fumble" charts...

Guilty. As. Charged.

For any aimed spell other than Magic Missile, we force what amounts to a to-hit roll for targeting...this is most relevant when trying to cast, say, a Web to catch the enemy front-liners but not your own.

We also use the idea of wild magic surges, these might occur any time magic is released in a way it shouldn't be; some examples:
- interruption of a partly-cast spell
- failing to cast a spell off a scroll due to it beyond your level
- destruction of a magic item

Scary thing is, when there's a chance of a magic surge my players cheer it on, even though the results are sometimes highly dangerous...

Lanefan