Magic Item Math?

[Spatzimaus]

Part of the problem with just letting everyone make these sort of multi-stat enhancement items is that they only pick the stats they really want. He wants STR, DEX, and WIS... let me guess, he's a Ranger? Or a Paladin that already has a CHA item?

Any non-DMG item is DM's discretion. By asking for an item that effectively combines three other slots, you're effectively making two other items slotless. You pay for that in the +100% rule, but it's still a huge benefit to be able to free up the amulet and glove slots, while the face slot is usually unused.

You shouldn't let the player pick and choose on these. Otherwise, they'll do things like make a +6 STR item that also happens to give +2 to CON, DEX, WIS (cuz it's cheap that way!)

IMC I added two items to the DMG list, and the players can't adjust them. Both cost 40k, both are Rings (so no using a level 3 Feat or being able to adjust to other slots).

Ring of the Sun: +2 Luck bonus to AC, Saves, Skill Checks, and Ability Checks, plus acts as a Ring of Sustenance
(Book price would be 45k, but I discounted it because ability checks are so much less useful than the other bonuses; most people, if they had the choice, would drop that one to save 10k)

Ring of the Moon: +2 Enhancement bonuses to STR, DEX, CON, INT, WIS, CHA. +10 Enhancement bonuses to Hide and Move Silently.
(Book price would be 52k; effectively I'm giving 7 abilities that cost 4k base, so they're paying for 5.5; it's more balanced when you realize that by the time someone can afford 40k they'll have a +4 or +6 item for their important stats, and everyone has at least one dump stat)NOTE: I've overhauled how +skill items work in my campaign, so it's completely different there, but I gave the combination that has roughly the same price from DMG rules.

My suggestion is for you, the DM, to come up with the sort of multi-stat items you want to introduce, and force the player to pick from your list.

 

[mkletch]

Part of the problem with just letting everyone make these sort of multi-stat enhancement items is that they only pick the stats they really want.

I don't understand why that is a problem. Are characters supposed to want items that are no good or only marginally good for them? Can you define this 'problem'?

Any non-DMG item is DM's discretion. By asking for an item that effectively combines three other slots, you're effectively making two other items slotless. You pay for that in the +100% rule, but it's still a huge benefit to be able to free up the amulet and glove slots, while the face slot is usually unused.

We tend to ask players (as a whole group, not jsut hte DM) for items to make sense. Why a mask of strength, or slotless underwear of hiding? If the item does not make sense, typically, the other players object (for fantasy campaign flavor reasons) before the DM.

You shouldn't let the player pick and choose on these. Otherwise, they'll do things like make a +6 STR item that also happens to give +2 to CON, DEX, WIS (cuz it's cheap that way!)

Still, I don't see what the problem is. Now, I am assuming a standard campaign, where magic is relatively plentiful (as depicted in Greyhawk, the WotC Adventure Path and the DMG. This item (+6 Str, +2 to three other abilities) would not really be out of place in the DMG (if it were there), and would certainly fit in flavor-wise with items in MoF. Even S&F has several items give combo enhancement items that are similar to what you complain about here.

My suggestion is for you, the DM, to come up with the sort of multi-stat items you want to introduce, and force the player to pick from your list.

I do come up with some, but it is part of the player's benefit for burning a feat on item creation that they can be creative with the items they make. Now in a low-magic campaign, I will restrict the feats available, but not what they make with them.

-Fletch!

 

[Spatzimaus]

I don't understand why that is a problem. Are characters supposed to want items that are no good or only marginally good for them? Can you define this 'problem'?

The "problem" is one of slot management. At low levels, no one cares, but at higher levels you might reach a point where most of your item slots are being used. You start having to make tough choices; do you want a Cloak of Charisma, or a Cloak of Resistance? Boots of Speed, or Boots of Springing and Striding? Periapt of Wisdom, or Amulet of Natural Armor? Which two Rings? It's possible to get some of these in slotless form (Ioun stones) but those tend to limit to +2.

You can then pick one of two paths:
1> If I can make a Gauntlet of STR, then I can make a Amulet of STR, or add STR to my gloves, or whatever. The "listed" slots become meaningless, and any effect can be added to any item if you're willing to pay the double price.
2> Only the DMG slot distributions (and any I as DM add) are allowed. If someone wants to try and come up with a new item they can research it, but it's not as simple as "I want to add effect X to this item, I'll pay the double price"

I'm not saying either choice is invalid. I've just seen option 1 go very badly before. Slots are precious. Certain bonuses are cheap. If you allow the player to freely come up with combinations, here's what you'll see (I've had something similar to this conversation)

Fighter: "Okay, I've got my +6 STR item. Instead of buying another +6 item, I want to add +10 Hide (4k after doubling), +10 Move Silently (4k after doubling), +10 Listen, +10 Spot, +10 Search, +2 DEX, +2 CON... that's 36k, same price by the DMG rules, and I don't even need to waste a slot!"
Rogue looks at his skill list and cries.

Having an item with multiple effects is better than having the second effect on a slotless item (like a Ioun stone), in my experience. Your mileage may vary.

 

[kreynolds]

If for some reason you wanted a mask that did not take up a slot (so that you could use goggles), or any other form that did not use a slot, the whole cost would normally be doubled. Since you have costs in there that are already doubled, the cost would be:

8000 for Strength +2 (4000 doubled)
12000 for Dexterity +2 (4000 doubled twice = 4000 tripled in DnD)
12000 for Wisdom +2 (4000 doubled twice = 4000 tripled in DnD)

The total would be 32kgp.

This is incorrect. For slotless items, you simply add all the prices together then double the whole thing. That mask would only cost 24,000gp as a slotless item.

 

[mkletch]

The "problem" is one of slot management. At low levels, no one cares, but at higher levels you might reach a point where most of your item slots are being used. You start having to make tough choices; do you want a Cloak of Charisma, or a Cloak of Resistance? Boots of Speed, or Boots of Springing and Striding? Periapt of Wisdom, or Amulet of Natural Armor? Which two Rings? It's possible to get some of these in slotless form (Ioun stones) but those tend to limit to +2.

Wow, you should see the iousn stones for that lich in Lords of Darkness. I think SKR posted values for them (not present in the book), and they were amazing. There were ioun stones worth 500kgp! As for my campaigns and those I play in, they tend to be tough enough that there really is not choice - you need them both. But that is what we as a gaming group prefer. An upcoming low magic campaign will be very much different (no permanent item creation, but a few will be found).

You can then pick one of two paths:
1> If I can make a Gauntlet of STR, then I can make a Amulet of STR, or add STR to my gloves, or whatever. The "listed" slots become meaningless, and any effect can be added to any item if you're willing to pay the double price.

No, they do not become meaningless. You are locking up more and more value into a single item. And if that item is stolen, sundered or disjoined, not only do you lose more value, you also lose more buffs/benefits until it is replaced, which takes even longer. Again, it comes down to high-magic or low-magic. What flavor is your campaign?

2> Only the DMG slot distributions (and any I as DM add) are allowed. If someone wants to try and come up with a new item they can research it, but it's not as simple as "I want to add effect X to this item, I'll pay the double price"

But that is how it is in the DMG and errata. I'm 100% OK with that, only so long as everybody goes into the campaign 100% informed. If this is done after someone has come up with an idea, burned the feats, and is then forced to backtrack and buy some vanilla list item, that is most uncool.

I'm not saying either choice is invalid. I've just seen option 1 go very badly before. Slots are precious. Certain bonuses are cheap. If you allow the player to freely come up with combinations, here's what you'll see (I've had something similar to this conversation)

[conversation deleted]

Yes, but that is only so long as the rogue is not able to get the same item. When the rogue adds the same bonuses to his item, he will once again excel at this skills, and be able to do more damage, and whatnot.

Again, it comes down to the flavor of the campaign and the desires of the players. If DM fiat alone rides against the DM's desire for iron-clad control at any cost, then that is not a campaign that I want any part in. The DM is merely a player with a different job (albeit more responsibilities).

-Fletch!

 

[mkletch]

This is incorrect. For slotless items, you simply add all the prices together then double the whole thing. That mask would only cost 24,000gp as a slotless item.

Adding a power to an existing item is not the same as a slotless item. The cost factors may be the same, but they are not the same thing. If you want to add a power, the cost of that power is doubled. If you want the item to be slotless, the cost of the item is doubled. If you want to add a power to an existing slotless item, the it is doubled-doubled, or tripled. It may not be something that a player would do, but that is how the words fall in the book.

-Fletch!

 

[Artoomis]

Adding a power to an existing item is not the same as a slotless item. The cost factors may be the same, but they are not the same thing. If you want to add a power, the cost of that power is doubled. If you want the item to be slotless, the cost of the item is doubled. If you want to add a power to an existing slotless item, the it is doubled-doubled, or tripled. It may not be something that a player would do, but that is how the words fall in the book.

-Fletch!

Nope.

That's cause there is no doubling of individual powers for a slotless item - the item price is doubled.

The doubling (or adding in 100% of cost) for added powers is for slotted items only.

Thus a slotess, multiple powerd item only costs a bit more than the same item that uses up a slot - only as much more as the "first" power costs.

Thus there is no "double-double."

 

[kreynolds]

If you want to add a power to an existing slotless item, the it is doubled-doubled, or tripled. It may not be something that a player would do, but that is how the words fall in the book.

Nope. What Artoomis said. (He beat me to the punch. I got wrapped up in UT2003 or a bit there.)

 

[Nail]

Thus a slotess, multiple powerd item only costs a bit more than the same item that uses up a slot - only as much more as the "first" power costs.

Wow. Although that checks out in th' DMG...doesn't that seem "off" to anyone?

The Magic Item system is so screwed up........

 

[mkletch]

That's cause there is no doubling of individual powers for a slotless item - the item price is doubled.

The doubling (or adding in 100% of cost) for added powers is for slotted items only.

Thus a slotess, multiple powerd item only costs a bit more than the same item that uses up a slot - only as much more as the "first" power costs.

Is this actually written somewhere, or is it ... extrapolated, from other rule text and rulings?

-Fletch!