D&D 5E Magic Items, and what it says about the editions

[Sacrosanct]

Ignoring for the moment the horribleness of such a player, you will like 5th edition: by choosing the "low magic campaign" option, that player would find no rules support for any magic items at all, and only a single uncommon item at level 11.

Again, you've lost me. I don't know what his has to do with my assertion that 3e made magic items a defacto requirement, and on a defined rule as to what and how much each PC gets.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

And my point is that that would be a double standard. With powerful at wills, casters are now never offensively neutered, so why would it be OK to neuter once set of classes, but not the casters? The only time I would agree that it's OK for fighters to be neutered (and the caster picks up the slack), is like in earlier editions without at will magic, because it was a back and forth depending on scenario. some times, the casters couldn't do anything. Sometimes the fighters couldn't and the casters could.

Elemental immunites also exist, so casters can be neutered too. And there's no such thing as a "Fire Bolt +1" that lets you bypass fire immunity.

 

[CapnZapp]

Okay Sacrosanct. Let's back up.

What I mean by "okay for immunity" is that the fighters still fulfil an important role: standing there taking the hurt shielding the wizard.

I don't mean it should be open season. I'm merely saying it isn't an automatic mistake. A DM that knows what she's doing can well call in an immune monster to see how the party handles it.

Since the DM is expected to be a capable one, she will not throw an immune monster against a spell-less party that the slowest member can't outrun, unless she feels confident the party will be able to think of something to outwit the monster.

I don't know: the fast fighter volunteering to draw away the monster while the slow fighter hides, or something.

I'm not arguing against your statement "you didn't need to give fighters magic items to offset a monster's resistance".

I'm merely reacting to what I percieve to be a lack of nuance to your conclusion: "You're not neutered like you were with complete immunity."

To which I'm basically saying sure, but even complete immunity (to non-magical weapons) doesn't mean complete immunity, assuming you have a spellcaster in your group.

That's all I'm saying.

The fact you might ALSO want to throw an old-school golem (immune to magic but not to pointy sticks) at the party is a completely different discussion

 

[CapnZapp]

Again, you've lost me. I don't know what his has to do with my assertion that 3e made magic items a defacto requirement, and on a defined rule as to what and how much each PC gets.

I'm merely saying that you won't have to endure that conversation in 5E. Unless the player is level 11 he can't even ruleslawyer his way into a magic item.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Elemental immunites also exist, so casters can be neutered too. And there's no such thing as a "Fire Bolt +1" that lets you bypass fire immunity.

Firebolts aren't the only cantrips casters can use.

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm merely saying that you won't have to endure that conversation in 5E. Unless the player is level 11 he can't even ruleslawyer his way into a magic item.

Um....OK. But that wasn't a problem I was talking about. I was talking about the differences between TSR D&D and 3e, in the context of how 3e made magic items the default assumption by things like the wealth by level table. You say this like I'm unaware of how 5e works or something. Of course I know it doesn't exist in 5e, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Firebolts aren't the only cantrips casters can use.

For some casters they will be, cantrips are limited. And fire immunities are not the only immunities. I shouldn't have to spell this out, it should be possible to figure it out.

 

[CapnZapp]

In fact, if we ignore the existence of cantrips for a second, the "special need" for a fight only the fighters can win is inherently much less than what I discuss above, a fight only the spellcasters can win.

Why? Because you can see EVERY fight as a fight the fighters win by the default.

It is only when and if the spellcasters CHOOSE to cast any spells a regular fight against kobolds or dragons become a fight winnable by the spellcasters.

In contrast, the fighters have access to their pointy sticks all the time, all day long. So a monster immune to their weapons will be a much larger diversion and challenge the party in much different ways. Than the reverse: a fight only the fighters can win can be EVERY fight where the casters simply decide to not cast any spells.

Highly theoretical, I know. But still

 

[Sacrosanct]

For some casters they will be, cantrips are limited. And fire immunities are not the only immunities. I shouldn't have to spell this out, it should be possible to figure it out.

All casters get more than one cantrip. I have never seen a caster only choose one type of offensive cantrip and not have any other offensives spells. Maybe you have. I know there are other immunities, but that wasn't the point I was making, so you can drop the condescending attitude. The bottom line is that a caster has the built in option to always be effectual. If you choose not to use your spells or cantrips on those options, that's your choice, not a built in choice. Unlike fighters, who don't have a choice to decided whether or not they have the right magic weapon because it may have never been available for them in the first place.

 

[Tony Vargas]

No Tony, you're misunderstanding.

I thought I was agreeing that the set of all items that wouldn't be a problem for PCs to just go out and buy would be empty in 5e.

Elemental immunites also exist, so casters can be neutered too. And there's no such thing as a "Fire Bolt +1" that lets you bypass fire immunity.

Not comparable, really. A resistance to a certain damage type like fire or slashing, just means switch types, to acid or bludgeoning, for instance. Casters have quite the selection of damage types, and weapons cover three types. Magic weapons are not something a non-caster can just choose to have (in 5e - in 3e no problem) the way he can choose to carry both a mace and a sword, or the way a caster can choose a variety of spells & cantrips with different damage types.