D&D 5E Magic Missile. Better as a cantrip?

[Ganymede81]

The cantrip is still way too good. Here, it is essentially a 1d6 damage cantrip with a long range, exotic damage type, the ability to split damage, and the ability to auto hit.

It's nearest comparison in this iteration is Eldritch Blast, as that cantrip has three of the four benefits presented here: the same range, damage type, and damage splitting. The difference is that you are trading an average of 2 damage per damage die for the ability to automatically hit.


Do you really feel that trading two points of average damage for the ability to auto-hit is an even trade?

 

[cbwjm]

Yep.

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[cbwjm]

It was an atwill in 4th edition that used an attack roll at first. They then changed it in essentials back to a autohit. First they got alot of backlash from 4e haters from having an attack roll. Then they got alot of backlash from 4e players from actually making a change in the CB that made the phb wrong. Thats when I dropped paying for the CB because it wiped away the option to play core 4e using it. Its also one of the changes I feel that killed 4e, because essential didnt bring players back like it whas supposed to, it split the brand.

I remember that magic missile change, it messed up a fun elemental magic missile build I'd made since it meant a number of feats no longer interacted with it due to the change from Hit to Effect. I guess in the long run it didn't matter since my friends and I never really had a chance to get into 4e due to life getting in the way.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

I like magic missile the way it is. My high level wizard still uses it frequently, often as a 'closer' on something that just HAS to die. Not much out there is resistant to force and never missing is a nice thing at all levels. Sure they can Shield their way out of it, but when they try that you know they're hurting and that's when Counterspell comes out.

 

[bid]

- acid splash: 2d6 * .5 = 3.5 DPR (DC 13 vs Dex14)
- magic missile (1): 1d4+1 = 3.5 DPR

You create a glowing dart of magical force which hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. The dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target.

Still trashes every other cantrip.

 

[cbwjm]

Still trashes every other cantrip.

Nah, I think it's fine now that it's been dropped to one missile at level one. It was too powerful in my original iteration when it started with two, which I knew, but really didn't want to admit it.

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[Lidgar]

Not for me. Will always be a level one spell. If this was a cantrip, why have any other attack cantrip?

 

[cbwjm]

Because you want to. Because you have a theme such as fire or storm. Because you want the additional effect of ray of frost or shocking grasp. Because your a bladesinger or eldritch knight and want to make use of booming blade or green flame blade. There are plenty of reasons why you'd choose something else.

Having said that, if you prefer it as a 1st level spell then keep it as a 1st level spell. This is just an idea I've had that I might introduce into my own games and figured I'd get some feedback while sharing it with the forums.

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[Ganymede81]

figured I'd get some feedback while sharing it with the forums.

The consensus is that your homebrew is significantly more powerful than similar cantrips.

 

[MechaPilot]

Still trashes every other cantrip.

No. Not at all. But, shortening the range to 60 feet would be more appropriate.

Not for me. Will always be a level one spell. If this was a cantrip, why have any other attack cantrip?

1) Because you want a different energy type?
2) Because other cantrips have riders that can slow an enemy or rob them of reactions?
3) Because other cantrips have greater range and casters are squishy?

 

[cbwjm]

The consensus is that your homebrew is significantly more powerful than similar cantrips.

No, it isn't the consensus. Some think it is sure, others think that bringing it down to one missile to start with would be more balanced, which I have done.

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[Ganymede81]

No. Not at all. But, shortening the range to 60 feet would be more appropriate.

I'd actually keep the range the same, but change it so that it required a roll to hit for each missile. Oh, and I'd change the name to Eldritch Blast.

 

[cbwjm]

No. Not at all. But, shortening the range to 60 feet would be more appropriate.




1) Because you want a different energy type?
2) Because other cantrips have riders that can slow an enemy or rob them of reactions?
3) Because other cantrips have greater range and casters are squishy?

See, this is the sort of feedback that I like to have. I hadn't even considered the range and just gave it the same range as the original spell.

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[77IM]

It should require an attack roll... and deal half damage on a miss! *ducks*

 

[bid]

Nah, I think it's fine now that it's been dropped to one missile at level one. It was too powerful in my original iteration when it started with two, which I knew, but really didn't want to admit it.

Well, your single missile has the same DPR as acid splash except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.

So, if you want this cantrip to be the best by a wide margin (+15% above EB), then keep it as it is. But expect every caster to get it first.

If you were to drop damage to 1d4 flat, you'd be barely better than 1d8 cantrips and you'd still have fewer resists.

 

[MechaPilot]

Well, your single missile has the same DPR as acid splash except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.

So, if you want this cantrip to be the best by a wide margin (+15% above EB), then keep it as it is. But expect every caster to get it first.

If you were to drop damage to 1d4 flat, you'd be barely better than 1d8 cantrips and you'd still have fewer resists.

I agree that it needs a range drop so the caster is within non-disadvantage javelin range. Also, the two targets really should have be very near each other (within 5 or 10 feet).

 

[Satyrn]

It should require an attack roll... and deal half damage on a miss! *ducks*

Go ahead and duck. You're still taking half damage.

 

[Lidgar]

1) Because you want a different energy type?
2) Because other cantrips have riders that can slow an enemy or rob them of reactions?
3) Because other cantrips have greater range and casters are squishy?

Those are all great reasons to have other cantrips. And it points out the strengths and weaknesses those cantrips can have.

I just don't like the idea of having an at-will ability that causes automatic damage for a target within range every round. Topping it off with it being force damage, it becomes almost a must have for any spell caster as at least a back-up damage option.

As other have suggested, making it a ranged spell attack and reducing the range to 60' would make it more on par with the other cantrips.

In exchange for making a spell attack, perhaps add the ability to shove a creature 10' with a successful hit?

 

[Valetudo]

Well, your single missile has the same DPR as acid splash except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.

So, if you want this cantrip to be the best by a wide margin (+15% above EB), then keep it as it is. But expect every caster to get it first.

If you were to drop damage to 1d4 flat, you'd be barely better than 1d8 cantrips and you'd still have fewer resists.

he wouldnt get 2nd missile until 5th lvl. At that point acid splash is doing 2d6 at 2 people.

 

[Valetudo]

Those are all great reasons to have other cantrips. And it points out the strengths and weaknesses those cantrips can have.

I just don't like the idea of having an at-will ability that causes automatic damage for a target within range every round. Topping it off with it being force damage, it becomes almost a must have for any spell caster as at least a back-up damage option.

As other have suggested, making it a ranged spell attack and reducing the range to 60' would make it more on par with the other cantrips.

In exchange for making a spell attack, perhaps add the ability to shove a creature 10' with a successful hit?

If you make it an attack roll. Maybye make damage 2d4 and give it a bonus to hit. Half damage is trong for cantrip, but so is autodamage.