D&D 5E Magic Missile. Better as a cantrip?

Horwath

Hero
I would do it as:

Magic arrow;
cantrip, casting time 1 Action,
range 100ft,
1d6 force damage to one target that you can see and not behind total cover.
at lvl5 2d6, lvl11 3d6, lvl17 4d6,

only one target at all levels but more damage.
 

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Henry

Autoexreginated
I see boosted magic missile at least once per two or three sessions - resistances rarely affect it unlike an element-based spell, and even magic resistance trait doesn't affect it.
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
After some feedback, I now have an updated version of the magic missile cantrip. Original post below for easy comparison. Basically though, I've dropped the initial number of missiles down to one and updated the wording to be similar to eldritch blast since I like to try to keep wording consistent with other 5e spells.

Magic Missile (sorcerer, wizard)
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You create a glowing dart of magical force which hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. The dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target.
The spell creates an additional missile when you reach higher levels: two missiles at 5th level, three missiles at 11th level, and four missiles at 17th level. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

That looks fine to me. If a player asked me about that, I'd allow it at my table.
 

bid

First Post
he wouldnt get 2nd missile until 5th lvl. At that point acid splash is doing 2d6 at 2 people.
Irrelevant. Count again:
- acid splash: 4d6 * .5 = 7 DPR (DC14 vs Dex16)
- magic missile (2): 2d4+2 = 7 DPR

Character level has no impact, whether at level 3, 5, 11 or 17 it's always the same DPR as acid splash, except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.
 

cooperjer

Explorer
After some feedback, I now have an updated version of the magic missile cantrip. Original post below for easy comparison. Basically though, I've dropped the initial number of missiles down to one and updated the wording to be similar to eldritch blast since I like to try to keep wording consistent with other 5e spells.

Magic Missile (sorcerer, wizard)
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous
You create a glowing dart of magical force which hits a creature of your choice that you can see within range. The dart deals 1d4+1 force damage to its target.
The spell creates an additional missile when you reach higher levels: two missiles at 5th level, three missiles at 11th level, and four missiles at 17th level. The darts all strike simultaneously, and you can direct them to hit one creature or several.

I like this version. Let us know what your players think and how you feel about it after it has been used a few times in your game.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Irrelevant. Count again:
- acid splash: 4d6 * .5 = 7 DPR (DC14 vs Dex16)
- magic missile (2): 2d4+2 = 7 DPR

Character level has no impact, whether at level 3, 5, 11 or 17 it's always the same DPR as acid splash, except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.
The problem with that argument being Acid Splash... isn't good.
 

bid

First Post
The problem with that argument being Acid Splash... isn't good.
Fine. Lets try EB then:
- EB: 2d10 * .60 = 6.6 (Int16 vs AC14)
- magic missile (2): 2d4+2 = 7 DPR

Ok, that's close enough. A little too good against high AC, but hey.
 

Remathilis

Legend
Imagine, for a minute, WotC made a feat that said this.

Backstabber
You are a master of a knife in the back when your opponent is distracted. You gain the following features.
* You are proficient in dagger, if you weren't already.
* Once per round on your turn, you can use your action to attack an opponent next to you with a dagger. You deal 1d4 piercing damage. If you have the extra attack feature, you deal an extra 1d4 for every attack the extra attack feature would give you.

Would you allow a fighter or a rogue to do guaranteed damage each round with without needing an attack roll?
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
Imagine, for a minute, WotC made a feat that said this.

Backstabber
You are a master of a knife in the back when your opponent is distracted. You gain the following features.
* You are proficient in dagger, if you weren't already.
* Once per round on your turn, you can use your action to attack an opponent next to you with a dagger. You deal 1d4 piercing damage. If you have the extra attack feature, you deal an extra 1d4 for every attack the extra attack feature would give you.

Would you allow a fighter or a rogue to do guaranteed damage each round with without needing an attack roll?
Considering I'm just going to slip away with this most definitely not in a bag...
 

cbwjm

Legend
I like this version. Let us know what your players think and how you feel about it after it has been used a few times in your game.
Will do, I'll do some testing in the next session. I think it is competitive in that, while automatic hit, people will still want to use those other cantrips. Might miss with them, but if you hit, there is that chance for more damage or the power to add an additional effect, ray of frost for instance, that slow has prevented a tpk.

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cbwjm

Legend
I would do it as:

Magic arrow;
cantrip, casting time 1 Action,
range 100ft,
1d6 force damage to one target that you can see and not behind total cover.
at lvl5 2d6, lvl11 3d6, lvl17 4d6,

only one target at all levels but more damage.
I had thought of that and had created a variation on magic missile that worked in a similar fashion although it was a 1st or 2nd level spell. It should be somewhere in my spell compendium or possibly some random word document somewhere.

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TallIan

Explorer
The cantrip is still way too good. Here, it is essentially a 1d6 damage cantrip with a long range, exotic damage type, the ability to split damage, and the ability to auto hit.

It's nearest comparison in this iteration is Eldritch Blast, as that cantrip has three of the four benefits presented here: the same range, damage type, and damage splitting. The difference is that you are trading an average of 2 damage per damage die for the ability to automatically hit.


Do you really feel that trading two points of average damage for the ability to auto-hit is an even trade?
I I don't think this is easily angered with a simple yes/no like [MENTION=6788732]cbwjm[/MENTION] did.

Vs a character reliant on mundane damage, the extra DPR is meh. Against a caster forcing a concentration check every round the auto hit is much more powerful.

Most of the discussion on this thread is about range and damage, not a lot of people are bringing up the benefit of auto hit, which I think it's HUGE.

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cbwjm

Legend
The problem with that argument being Acid Splash... isn't good.
I honestly feel acid splash would be better if it dealt damage to all in a 5-foot radius. In all likelihood you'd still only get one or two targets but every now and then you'd hit more making it feel a little more worthwhile.

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Staffan

Legend
The way I see it, the "baseline" for blaster-class cantrips is 1d10 damage with a hit roll or save. That's what firebolt and eldritch blast do. Below that, you have cantrips that deal less damage but come with various riders: d8 + stopping healing for chill touch, d8 + reduced speed for ray of frost, d8 + stopping reactions for shocking grasp, or d6 with the potential to hit two targets for acid splash. In light of that, I don't think d6 (or d4+1) with auto-hit is excessive - it's competitive, but a bit boring.

A thing to consider is that a hard-hitter like firebolt has a fair chance of taking out a weak creature (e.g. a kobold or goblin) at low levels. That's not going to happen with cantrip-magic missile. That's a thing I noticed when playing a wizard with acid splash in a low-level campaign - sure, I sometimes hit two goblins for like 3 damage, but then the fighter came along and hit it for 9, which would have killed it even without my damage.
 

Ganymede81

First Post
A thing to consider is that a hard-hitter like firebolt has a fair chance of taking out a weak creature (e.g. a kobold or goblin) at low levels. That's not going to happen with cantrip-magic missile.

This is not particularly compelling.

In short, you're making the argument that "Good things happen when you roll well." If you're going to factor in the benefits of rolling well (a fair chance of taking out a weak creature), you also need to factor in the drawbacks of rolling poorly (a fair chance of doing nothing at all). Otherwise, your analysis is incomplete.

This is generally why average results are used.
 

Staffan

Legend
This is not particularly compelling.

In short, you're making the argument that "Good things happen when you roll well." If you're going to factor in the benefits of rolling well (a fair chance of taking out a weak creature), you also need to factor in the drawbacks of rolling poorly (a fair chance of doing nothing at all). Otherwise, your analysis is incomplete.

This is generally why average results are used.

But it is relevant, particularly at lower levels (which is where most cantrip use is found). Let's say my party is fighting some goblins, with 7 hp each. I have cantrip-magic missile and firebolt available. The party fighter uses a longsword + shield and has the duelist fighting style. The rogue is using a rapier.

If the fighter hits a goblin, the fighter deals 1d8+5 damage (Str 16 + duelist). The fighter kills the goblin unless he or she rolls a 1 - a 1 in 8 chance.

If the rogue hits a goblin and gets sneak attack in (and he or she should), that's 1d8+1d6+3 damage. The rogue kills the goblin unless he or she rolls 2-3 on 1d8+1d6 - a 1 in 16 chance.

If I cast cantrip-magic missile at a goblin, I will deal 1d4+1 damage to it. That won't kill it - there is no chance of that happening. The next round, that goblin will still be around to make an attack - unless one of my comrades attacks it as well, and in that case the goblin would almost certainly have died anyway. That means that my action was almost certainly wasted (unless I fire one one of the goblins in the back that my buddies aren't hitting).

But if I cast firebolt, I at least have a chance of dealing 7 points of damage and taking the goblin out.

Now, all of this is an artifact of how damage and hit points scale at lower levels. If we're fighting a 27 hp bugbear instead, none of us is going to take that thing down in a single shot, so then averages become more relevant.
 

Ganymede81

First Post
I never said it was not relevant.

I said it was not compelling. It is akin to arguing that a 1d6 is better than a 1d4+1 because it gives you the power to one-shot monsters with 6 HP, but neglecting to factor in that it also means you could roll a 1, something impossible on a 1d4+1.

(As an aside, not all goblins have 7 HP; that's simply the average.)
 

discosoc

First Post
In light of that, I don't think d6 (or d4+1) with auto-hit is excessive - it's competitive, but a bit boring.

Considering combat cantrips are supposed to be the caster's version of weapon attacks (so they don't just sit around doing nothing when not casting a full spell), being able to auto-hit is kind of big. And with it being magical damage, it's also an auto-hit that doesn't care about most resistances, is an on-demand concentration check at range, and could be piggy-backed onto bonus-action spells for an extra bit of free damage. That's a pretty massive benefit compared to basically every other cantrip out there.
 

77IM

Explorer!!!
Supporter
Another thing about making magic missile a cantrip: It takes away a 1st-level spell that remains useful at higher levels.

Most low-level attack spells are quickly outpaced due to the action economy, leaving the 1st- and 2nd-level slots to be used by utility spells (some of which are quite good, such as shield, mage armor, misty step, etc.). But because of its auto-hit, magic missile retains its utility a bit longer; the auto-hit is a good move, tactically, in certain situations (like when an enemy is near dead, or when you want to force a concentration save, or when an enemy is just hard to hit or very resistant, like fighting an incorporeal undead).

So if you make magic missile a cantrip, you get those benefits all the time, but you won't be spending 1st-level spell slots on them any more. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be a hidden boost to wizards and sorcerers by giving them more spell slots to spend on shield, but it may also be frustrating to players to have 1st-level slots available that they can't effectively use offensively.
 

Dausuul

Legend
For non-warlocks, I use fire bolt as the cantrip baseline. (Eldritch blast is more of a warlock class feature than a spell IMO.) The magic missile cantrip is doing about 65% the damage of fire bolt (3.5 versus 5.5). Since fire bolt will typically have about a 65-70% chance to hit, on a pure damage basis, it comes out even.

That said, magic missile has several advantages that tilt the scale in its favor. Lots of stuff is immune or resistant to fire damage; pretty much nothing is immune or resistant to force. Auto-hits can disrupt concentration and otherwise mess with enemies. And magic missile can be split between targets.

I'd suggest cutting the range to, say, 20 feet. That's a tight enough limit to make a wizard think twice about relying exclusively on magic missile, while still leaving it a useful spell.
 
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