D&D 5E Magic Missile. Better as a cantrip?
- Thread starter cbwjm
- Start date
MechaPilot
Explorer
That looks fine to me. If a player asked me about that, I'd allow it at my table.
Irrelevant. Count again:
- acid splash: 4d6 * .5 = 7 DPR (DC14 vs Dex16)
- magic missile (2): 2d4+2 = 7 DPR
Character level has no impact, whether at level 3, 5, 11 or 17 it's always the same DPR as acid splash, except:
- you don't need 2 targets within 5 feet of each other,
- you're not limited to 60 feet,
- force is not resisted as often as acid.
I like this version. Let us know what your players think and how you feel about it after it has been used a few times in your game.
Fine. Lets try EB then:
- EB: 2d10 * .60 = 6.6 (Int16 vs AC14)
- magic missile (2): 2d4+2 = 7 DPR
Ok, that's close enough. A little too good against high AC, but hey.
Remathilis
Legend
Imagine, for a minute, WotC made a feat that said this.
Backstabber
You are a master of a knife in the back when your opponent is distracted. You gain the following features.
* You are proficient in dagger, if you weren't already.
* Once per round on your turn, you can use your action to attack an opponent next to you with a dagger. You deal 1d4 piercing damage. If you have the extra attack feature, you deal an extra 1d4 for every attack the extra attack feature would give you.
Would you allow a fighter or a rogue to do guaranteed damage each round with without needing an attack roll?
Backstabber
You are a master of a knife in the back when your opponent is distracted. You gain the following features.
* You are proficient in dagger, if you weren't already.
* Once per round on your turn, you can use your action to attack an opponent next to you with a dagger. You deal 1d4 piercing damage. If you have the extra attack feature, you deal an extra 1d4 for every attack the extra attack feature would give you.
Would you allow a fighter or a rogue to do guaranteed damage each round with without needing an attack roll?
Considering I'm just going to slip away with this most definitely not in a bag...
cbwjm
Legend
Will do, I'll do some testing in the next session. I think it is competitive in that, while automatic hit, people will still want to use those other cantrips. Might miss with them, but if you hit, there is that chance for more damage or the power to add an additional effect, ray of frost for instance, that slow has prevented a tpk.
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cbwjm
Legend
I had thought of that and had created a variation on magic missile that worked in a similar fashion although it was a 1st or 2nd level spell. It should be somewhere in my spell compendium or possibly some random word document somewhere.
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TallIan
Explorer
I I don't think this is easily angered with a simple yes/no like [MENTION=6788732]cbwjm[/MENTION] did.
Vs a character reliant on mundane damage, the extra DPR is meh. Against a caster forcing a concentration check every round the auto hit is much more powerful.
Most of the discussion on this thread is about range and damage, not a lot of people are bringing up the benefit of auto hit, which I think it's HUGE.
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cbwjm
Legend
I honestly feel acid splash would be better if it dealt damage to all in a 5-foot radius. In all likelihood you'd still only get one or two targets but every now and then you'd hit more making it feel a little more worthwhile.
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The way I see it, the "baseline" for blaster-class cantrips is 1d10 damage with a hit roll or save. That's what firebolt and eldritch blast do. Below that, you have cantrips that deal less damage but come with various riders: d8 + stopping healing for chill touch, d8 + reduced speed for ray of frost, d8 + stopping reactions for shocking grasp, or d6 with the potential to hit two targets for acid splash. In light of that, I don't think d6 (or d4+1) with auto-hit is excessive - it's competitive, but a bit boring.
A thing to consider is that a hard-hitter like firebolt has a fair chance of taking out a weak creature (e.g. a kobold or goblin) at low levels. That's not going to happen with cantrip-magic missile. That's a thing I noticed when playing a wizard with acid splash in a low-level campaign - sure, I sometimes hit two goblins for like 3 damage, but then the fighter came along and hit it for 9, which would have killed it even without my damage.
A thing to consider is that a hard-hitter like firebolt has a fair chance of taking out a weak creature (e.g. a kobold or goblin) at low levels. That's not going to happen with cantrip-magic missile. That's a thing I noticed when playing a wizard with acid splash in a low-level campaign - sure, I sometimes hit two goblins for like 3 damage, but then the fighter came along and hit it for 9, which would have killed it even without my damage.
Ganymede81
First Post
This is not particularly compelling.
In short, you're making the argument that "Good things happen when you roll well." If you're going to factor in the benefits of rolling well (a fair chance of taking out a weak creature), you also need to factor in the drawbacks of rolling poorly (a fair chance of doing nothing at all). Otherwise, your analysis is incomplete.
This is generally why average results are used.
But it is relevant, particularly at lower levels (which is where most cantrip use is found). Let's say my party is fighting some goblins, with 7 hp each. I have cantrip-magic missile and firebolt available. The party fighter uses a longsword + shield and has the duelist fighting style. The rogue is using a rapier.
If the fighter hits a goblin, the fighter deals 1d8+5 damage (Str 16 + duelist). The fighter kills the goblin unless he or she rolls a 1 - a 1 in 8 chance.
If the rogue hits a goblin and gets sneak attack in (and he or she should), that's 1d8+1d6+3 damage. The rogue kills the goblin unless he or she rolls 2-3 on 1d8+1d6 - a 1 in 16 chance.
If I cast cantrip-magic missile at a goblin, I will deal 1d4+1 damage to it. That won't kill it - there is no chance of that happening. The next round, that goblin will still be around to make an attack - unless one of my comrades attacks it as well, and in that case the goblin would almost certainly have died anyway. That means that my action was almost certainly wasted (unless I fire one one of the goblins in the back that my buddies aren't hitting).
But if I cast firebolt, I at least have a chance of dealing 7 points of damage and taking the goblin out.
Now, all of this is an artifact of how damage and hit points scale at lower levels. If we're fighting a 27 hp bugbear instead, none of us is going to take that thing down in a single shot, so then averages become more relevant.
Ganymede81
First Post
I never said it was not relevant.
I said it was not compelling. It is akin to arguing that a 1d6 is better than a 1d4+1 because it gives you the power to one-shot monsters with 6 HP, but neglecting to factor in that it also means you could roll a 1, something impossible on a 1d4+1.
(As an aside, not all goblins have 7 HP; that's simply the average.)
I said it was not compelling. It is akin to arguing that a 1d6 is better than a 1d4+1 because it gives you the power to one-shot monsters with 6 HP, but neglecting to factor in that it also means you could roll a 1, something impossible on a 1d4+1.
(As an aside, not all goblins have 7 HP; that's simply the average.)
Considering combat cantrips are supposed to be the caster's version of weapon attacks (so they don't just sit around doing nothing when not casting a full spell), being able to auto-hit is kind of big. And with it being magical damage, it's also an auto-hit that doesn't care about most resistances, is an on-demand concentration check at range, and could be piggy-backed onto bonus-action spells for an extra bit of free damage. That's a pretty massive benefit compared to basically every other cantrip out there.
Another thing about making magic missile a cantrip: It takes away a 1st-level spell that remains useful at higher levels.
Most low-level attack spells are quickly outpaced due to the action economy, leaving the 1st- and 2nd-level slots to be used by utility spells (some of which are quite good, such as shield, mage armor, misty step, etc.). But because of its auto-hit, magic missile retains its utility a bit longer; the auto-hit is a good move, tactically, in certain situations (like when an enemy is near dead, or when you want to force a concentration save, or when an enemy is just hard to hit or very resistant, like fighting an incorporeal undead).
So if you make magic missile a cantrip, you get those benefits all the time, but you won't be spending 1st-level spell slots on them any more. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be a hidden boost to wizards and sorcerers by giving them more spell slots to spend on shield, but it may also be frustrating to players to have 1st-level slots available that they can't effectively use offensively.
Most low-level attack spells are quickly outpaced due to the action economy, leaving the 1st- and 2nd-level slots to be used by utility spells (some of which are quite good, such as shield, mage armor, misty step, etc.). But because of its auto-hit, magic missile retains its utility a bit longer; the auto-hit is a good move, tactically, in certain situations (like when an enemy is near dead, or when you want to force a concentration save, or when an enemy is just hard to hit or very resistant, like fighting an incorporeal undead).
So if you make magic missile a cantrip, you get those benefits all the time, but you won't be spending 1st-level spell slots on them any more. That could be a good thing or a bad thing. It may be a hidden boost to wizards and sorcerers by giving them more spell slots to spend on shield, but it may also be frustrating to players to have 1st-level slots available that they can't effectively use offensively.
For non-warlocks, I use fire bolt as the cantrip baseline. (Eldritch blast is more of a warlock class feature than a spell IMO.) The magic missile cantrip is doing about 65% the damage of fire bolt (3.5 versus 5.5). Since fire bolt will typically have about a 65-70% chance to hit, on a pure damage basis, it comes out even.
That said, magic missile has several advantages that tilt the scale in its favor. Lots of stuff is immune or resistant to fire damage; pretty much nothing is immune or resistant to force. Auto-hits can disrupt concentration and otherwise mess with enemies. And magic missile can be split between targets.
I'd suggest cutting the range to, say, 20 feet. That's a tight enough limit to make a wizard think twice about relying exclusively on magic missile, while still leaving it a useful spell.
That said, magic missile has several advantages that tilt the scale in its favor. Lots of stuff is immune or resistant to fire damage; pretty much nothing is immune or resistant to force. Auto-hits can disrupt concentration and otherwise mess with enemies. And magic missile can be split between targets.
I'd suggest cutting the range to, say, 20 feet. That's a tight enough limit to make a wizard think twice about relying exclusively on magic missile, while still leaving it a useful spell.
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