Magic Missile vrs. Displacement

[Kershek]

Magic Missile is targeted. Mirror Image is not the same thing as displacement or a miss chance. A Mirror Image can be targeted, the attacker chooses which image to target / swing a sword at / shoot et cetera. If you cast Hold Person on someone with mirror image up and select an image hold simply destroys it with no effect on the mirror image's caster.

Er, does this mean you can't use Magic Missile to unerringly hit someone who has Mirror Image up?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ah, I hadn't realized that "target" was a technical term, at least as far as game mechanics go.

Yup.

Er, does this mean you can't use Magic Missile to unerringly hit someone who has Mirror Image up?

That's right.

What happens depends on whether you include rulings from the FAQ.

-Hyp.

 

[LokiDR]

It's Magic Missle. It's always Magic Missle, it's always going to BE Magic Missle.

Besides, as much as we hate it, Wizards NEED a basic, easy to use, effective combat spell.

Compare magic missle to the lesser orb spells. MM always hits, you need to roll with the orbs. MM deals force damage hitting etheral creatures and there is no resistance to force. The orbs all do energy damage which many creatures have a resistance or immunity to. On a successful save, the MM does more damage (3.5 vs 2.25) On a failed save, the orb only does 1 more point of damage per missle. The only reason I have ever seen some one take the lesser orb spells is for sneak attack.

This compareson gets even worse for negative energy ray.

I'm not against effective spells. I'm against MM being the only one. Barring evoke as a 1st level wizard shouldn't be a death sentence.

Yes, it's overpowered as a 1st level spell. But it's also a must-have for 1st level wizards to survive and contribute to a party when it comes time to roll initiative.

Ok, you admit it is overpowered, but think you need it so you can be at all effective. That says a lot for changing something, as it isn't a balanced situation by your own admission.

Besides, any wizard beyond level 5 who relies on Magic Missle has to live with the stigma that he's still using his crappy 1st level spells to survive, even if they DO do 1d4+1 every other caster level - and it sometimes turns out to be more damage than a Fireball.

I have seen MM be used up to 16th level. Quickened mostly. When high level characters survive, they all try to find some way to be immune to MM. Why is that the only spell they choose? Because it is broken

I don't expect it to be changed, but it irks me as an unbalanced situation.

 

[LokiDR]

Arguments of magic missile being overpowered always seem to compare it to area-affect spells like burning hands, but then you assume that there is only one target of burning hands. Magic missile is good. Especially if you don't know what you will be fighting that day. It is not the be-all, end-all. Burning hands and shocking grasp can be just as effective if used judiciously.

Your 1-4th level wizard or sorcerer wants to get within of 10' of the thing fighting your party? You survive like that?

Burning hands may be more effective a low levels, but so is sleep. Sleep eventually becomes useless, MM just keeps going. Sorcerers (3.0 at least) wouldn't choose sleep as it would suck later. Every sorcerer I have seen takes MM.

 

[Dreeble]

T&T

Heya:

Woo! A Tunnels and Trolls reference! Yee!

On topic: The visual of what happens when, say, three Magic Missiles fly out from the caster's hands, streak towards the target, and swerve 4 feet to the left, exploding in blue sparks against "empty" air, faintly outlining the _real_ target. Cool.

Take care,
Dreeble

 

[Lord Pendragon]

There's a difference between "more powerful" and "overpowered." Magic Missile is more powerful than many other 1st-level spells. It is not overpowered. It does not unbalance the wizard to have access to it. It does not break the game.

 

[LokiDR]

There's a difference between "more powerful" and "overpowered." Magic Missile is more powerful than many other 1st-level spells. It is not overpowered. It does not unbalance the wizard to have access to it. It does not break the game.

It is more than just more powerful though, it is something everyone I have seen takes. It leaves its closest comparesons in the dust.

"Break the game" is very relative term. I didn't think 3.0 haste broke the game, but it was far to common and too useful. You could beat a person using haste, it was just harder. I see MM as a similar situation.

I don't plan to convert anyone to this point of view, but I think others take MM far too much for granted.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

It is more than just more powerful though, it is something everyone I have seen takes. It leaves its closest comparesons in the dust.

While yes, most spellcasters will take Magic Missile I guess one of the points where our viewpoints differ is that I don't see that has being unbalancing in and of itself. Barbarians almost always take 2-handed weapons. TWFs almost always dual-wielded short sword or daggers. There are going to be options that are more advantageous than others. Magic Missile is certainly a stronger option. Though I'd argue that other 1st-level spells such as Shield, Mage Armor are at least as useful. Indeed, when I was creating my latest wizzie, a Transmuter, I considered having her toss Evocation, but never even thought of Conjuration. Mage Armor was just too important.

"Break the game" is very relative term. I didn't think 3.0 haste broke the game, but it was far to common and too useful. You could beat a person using haste, it was just harder. I see MM as a similar situation.

I agree with you that Haste wasn't/isn't broken. But I guess I just don't buy the idea that because a lot of characters want it, it's too good. Nearly every PC I've created has taken Dodge, and not a one has even looked in the direction of Run. I'm not sure that means that Dodge is a broken choice, just because a lot of people take it.

I don't plan to convert anyone to this point of view, but I think others take MM far too much for granted.

I feel the same way. Though it's thought-provoking to discuss our various viewpoints.

 

[Dr.Dan]

There's a difference between "more powerful" and "overpowered." Magic Missile is more powerful than many other 1st-level spells. It is not overpowered. It does not unbalance the wizard to have access to it. It does not break the game.

I suppose that MM doesn't break the game, but it is still overpowered. No offensive first level spell comes close to reliably causing as much damage as it does - period! Even the 2nd level Acid Arrow should be shunned in many situations, and MM used to fill the offensive casters spell slots in lieu of it. The only reason that MM doesn't cause more havoc is that it is still relatively meek when compared to higher level spells. If such a gap in power existed in the higher level spell lists then it would be called broken by all but the smallest of munchkins.

MM may not be truly broken, but it certainly has its share of cracks.

 

[Dr.Dan]

There's a difference between "more powerful" and "overpowered." Magic Missile is more powerful than many other 1st-level spells. It is not overpowered. It does not unbalance the wizard to have access to it. It does not break the game.

I suppose that MM doesn't quite break the game, but it is still overpowered. No offensive first level spell comes close to reliably causing as much damage as it does - period! Even the 2nd level Acid Arrow should be shunned in many situations, and MM used to fill the offensive casters spell slots in lieu of it. The only reason that MM doesn't cause more havoc is that it is still relatively meek when compared to higher level spells. If such a gap in power existed on the higher level spell lists then it would be called broken by all but the smallest of munchkins.

MM may not be truly broken, but it certainly has its share of cracks.