Magic Missiles vs Mirror Image

[Dracorat]

So if the caster decided to assume that perhaps the apparently human wizard under the Mirror Image might in fact be someone Shapechanged into an animal (thus gaining the Animal type) using a Veil spell to appear human, you'd let Hold Animal pop a figment?

Yes. And I have no issue with letting it.

Which makes Message a better anti-MI spell that Magic Missile, since there might be 8 images plus the caster. Magic Missile can only target 5, but Message can target 1/caster level...

-Hyp.

Somewhat. You could send them messages and they couldn't reply. I wouldn't rule that as sufficient interaction to break the illusion.

 

[RigaMortus2]

I don't care about the intent of any spell or rule, I usually decide on the spot and state something like: "each missile has an equal chance of hitting you or a figment." If they argued, I'd tell them that by the rules you're probably right, but I don't care, this is the way we are doing it right now, let's move on.

Why waste time arguing when you could be PLAYING THE GAME. If they wanted to argue it after the game in an email, using the rule books to prove I was wrong, that's fine, but I'm tired of arguing over spell rules during the game. DMs decide, thern move on...and bring the argument to ENW.

Or instead of wasting time arguing during the game, you could come to an online D&D rules forum (such as this one) and ask the question (such as the original poster did) and get feedback from those who reply (which we are) so that when it does come up in game, you already have your ruling for it.

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure I understand. I don't see how that quote says "A figment counts as a creature". To me, it just says "You can't tell whether the one you select is a creature or a figment while you're choosing"...

-Hyp.

The effect of an attack on this figment has a specific effect, from which magic missile is not excluded.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't care about the intent of any spell or rule, I usually decide on the spot and state something like: "each missile has an equal chance of hitting you or a figment." If they argued, I'd tell them that by the rules you're probably right, but I don't care, this is the way we are doing it right now, let's move on.

Why waste time arguing when you could be PLAYING THE GAME. If they wanted to argue it after the game in an email, using the rule books to prove I was wrong, that's fine, but I'm tired of arguing over spell rules during the game. DMs decide, thern move on...and bring the argument to ENW.

Who said anything about arguing during a game?

The entire intent of these forums is to discuss the rules ahead of time so that arguing during a game is minimized.

 

[KarinsDad]

What do you do when the MM caster is faced with a silent image or one of its brethren? Do you allow MM to be the cheapest figment-detector in the game? The whole point of figments is to get enemies to waste their attacks on them. A major image under control of a clever caster can keep people very busy... (...unless you try the "won't target" version of MM, and the game is up)

Err, so what? The caster would gain knowledge that his spell did not work on that image, but the caster also lost a spell doing so.

How is this much different than the Fighter would swings at the image while the "image caster" is standing on the side concentrating the entire time? Wouldn't the Fighter also get suspicious that the caster is looking his way and concentrating? Wouldn't the Fighter also quickly get a Will save to disbelieve when he interacts with the image that never hits him?

The Image spells are pretty worthless as is (I totally disagree with your "clever caster" comment). Which PC or NPC with any real intelligence uses them? The caster has to concentrate, so unlike Summoned Monster spells, the caster is using up all of his time concentrating, just so that one or more of his enemies swing at an image instead of at him. And oh btw, the caster is typically somewhat out in the open doing this (so that he can see the combat and make his image react).

As a temporary distraction, the Image spells are fine. As a waste your opponents' actions in combat spell (or keep opponents very busy as you stated it spell), they suck (in fact, most of the Illusion school sucks since WotC screwed up the mechanics of how they work).


What happens in your game if a Fireball is cast at a Major Image?

Does it: a) disappear? b) the caster automatically makes the image look crispy and this automatically fools every viewer? c) the caster needs some sort of Concentration or other roll (e.g. Bluff) to make the image look crispy and fool other viewers? d) the viewers get to make a Will save to disbelieve since the caster changes the appearance of the image to make it look crispy and hence all viewers are interacting with the image?

 

[KarinsDad]

The effect of an attack on this figment has a specific effect, from which magic missile is not excluded.

Sure it's excluded. Magic Missile only affects creatures and Mirror Image does not state that the figment images are legal targets for spells that only affect creatures.

You might not like that, but those are the rules. Nothing in that sentence changes those rules.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The effect of an attack on this figment has a specific effect, from which magic missile is not excluded.

Remember, it's not the effect of an attack. It's the effect of a successful attack.

It's not a successful attack if the spell fails.

If I try to cast Scorching Ray at a figment, but I'm hit with an Attack of Opportunity and the casting fails, it's not an attack on the figment.

If I try to cast Magic Missile at a figment, but the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform and the casting fails, it's not an attack on the figment.

Somewhat. You could send them messages and they couldn't reply. I wouldn't rule that as sufficient interaction to break the illusion.

You targeted them with a spell that affects creatures.

You're saying that targeting an illusion of a human with a Hold Animal spell is a 'successful attack', and sufficient interaction to pop a Mirror Image figment, but targeting the same illusion with a Message spell isn't? I don't understand.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

Remember, it's not the effect of an attack. It's the effect of a successful attack.

The caster of mirror image is still legally the target of the magic missile, it is simply the case that there is a chance someone attacking that caster might instead strike an image.

Further, what defines a successful attack? Is a strike by an unerring missile of energy unsuccessful?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The caster of mirror image is still legally the target of the magic missile

No, he isn't. You select from among multiple targets. The target of the magic missile is randomly determined to either be the caster, or a figment... and if it's a figment, it's not a creature, and therefore invalid.

Further, what defines a successful attack? Is a strike by an unerring missile of energy unsuccessful?

I'd call a strike by an unerring missile of energy a successful attack, by all means. But it's an unerring missile of energy that only targets creatures, and a figment isn't.

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

I'd call a strike by an unerring missile of energy a successful attack, by all means. But it's an unerring missile of energy that only targets creatures, and a figment isn't.

-Hyp.

It targets a creature. It may incidentally strike a figment.