Magic Missiles vs Mirror Image

[Hypersmurf]

It targets a creature. It may incidentally strike a figment.

It strikes what the caster selects as a target, as long as what the caster selects is a creature.

The caster selects from among indistinguishable targets.

The caster cannot target 'The real wizard from that group of six'. He targets one of the group of six, and then determines whether that one was the real wizard or not.

-Hyp.

 

[Justin Bacon]

Sure it's excluded. Magic Missile only affects creatures and Mirror Image does not state that the figment images are legal targets for spells that only affect creatures.

The mirror images are specifically defined as being indistinguishable for the purpose of targeting them with spells.

SRD: "Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets."

The distinction between a "legal" and "not legal" target for the spell would, in fact, make the targets distinguishable, IMO. Thus, the figments must be a legal target for a spell in exactly the same way that the caster would be a legal target for a spell (because, otherwise, they would be distinguishable).

The only exception given -- and it's given explicitly -- is that a successful attack will make a figment disappear.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

SRD: "Enemies attempting to attack you or cast spells at you must select from among indistinguishable targets."

The distinction between a "legal" and "not legal" target for the spell would, in fact, make the targets distinguishable, IMO.

That...is an interesting train of thought.

 

[Bad Paper]

The Image spells are pretty worthless as is (I totally disagree with your "clever caster" comment). Which PC or NPC with any real intelligence uses them?

Most recently: a cornugon, hiding around a corner, during a big fight. The party had tangled with this particular devil before, and were clearly waiting to pounce. It trotted out its persistent image (of itself), and I watched with glee as the wizard and ranger blew their loads on a damn illusion.

Perhaps when I said "clever caster" I meant "clever DM," sorry about that. I keep breaking my arm patting myself on the back. I get the party with illusions every time. I even scared the bejesus out of them with a friggin silent image. You need to give more love to Illusion, good sir.

And in response to your question: A or B, depending on the circumstances, though I can think of times where C or D would be appropriate. And for C it would be ... probably a Bluff check; if it were a wizard, though, I would modify the check with the Intelligence modifier instead of the Charisma one.

If we are going to assume that magic missile cannot fly toward a figment, then can someone explain the mechanics of targetting? The spell locates a thing-with-both-Charisma-and-Wisdom and a force ball explodes toward that thing?

 

[Hypersmurf]

The distinction between a "legal" and "not legal" target for the spell would, in fact, make the targets distinguishable, IMO.

Not to the enemy while he's making his selection. Only after.

If we are going to assume that magic missile cannot fly toward a figment, then can someone explain the mechanics of targetting? The spell locates a thing-with-both-Charisma-and-Wisdom and a force ball explodes toward that thing?

Pretty much.

The dart of energy is effectively flavour.

A 1st level spell where the caster slashed with a flashing dagger and up to five creatures in range took 1d4+1 points of force damage from the knife wounds that magically appeared on their bodies would, essentially, be mechanically identical to Magic Missile.

You cast the spell, selecting up to five targets. If the characteristics of the spell can be made to conform, the casting succeeds and darts of energy streak towards those targets and deal force damage. If the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform - such as if the targets you select are not valid for the Magic Missile spell - the casting fails and darts of energy do not streak towards those targets and deal force damage.

-Hyp.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Back to this

There is no doubt at all that the 3.x designers intended to change it because they changed the way the whole magic system functioned, clearly identifying what happens with illusions.

for just a moment...

The only thing clear about this that I can discern is that the 3.x designers wanted to codify illusion magic more to minimize the amount of confusion and variable rulings that ran rampant in previous editions.

One cannot assume from that that they also intended the interaction of these two spells change in 3.x. After all, this could also be the result of the "Law of Unintended Consequences."

Indeed, they may not have even considered that there would be a change or a problem because of their work.

 

[Vanye]

Somewhat. You could send them messages and they couldn't reply. I wouldn't rule that as sufficient interaction to break the illusion.

As oppposed to someone simply refusing to reply? :\

 

[Dracorat]

That's exactly why it wouldn't be sufficient interaction. To the caster, they would not be able to absolutely tell no reply was received because the target was a figment vs. the recipient being the real one and just not replying.

 

[Felix]

That's exactly why it wouldn't be sufficient interaction. To the caster, they would not be able to absolutely tell no reply was received because the target was a figment vs. the recipient being the real one and just not replying.

At what point did "a successful attack" become equated with "sufficient interaction" for the purposes of the Mirror Image spell?

Interacting with Mirror Images does nothing to them; you don't get a save to recognize that they're Illusions when you interact with them, ever. Your hand might pass through them, and you might be suprised that it does so, but unless that was "a successful attack": nothing happens.

 

[KarinsDad]

Most recently: a cornugon, hiding around a corner, during a big fight. The party had tangled with this particular devil before, and were clearly waiting to pounce. It trotted out its persistent image (of itself), and I watched with glee as the wizard and ranger blew their loads on a damn illusion.

Perhaps when I said "clever caster" I meant "clever DM," sorry about that. I keep breaking my arm patting myself on the back. I get the party with illusions every time. I even scared the bejesus out of them with a friggin silent image. You need to give more love to Illusion, good sir.

How can you get a Persistent Image to act in an intelligent manner in combat? Since the caster does not concentrate on it, how does it react to any sort of damage if it is following a script?

And, Persistent Image is based on Silent Image, not Major Image. This means that the caster cannot concentrate on it to have it react to attacks anyway. If it gets hit by a Fireball, it cannot be changed to look "crisped". If it gets hit by a sword, it cannot be changed to look like it is bleeding.

Illusions are tough to pull off if you are actually following RAW.

So sure, if the Clever DM changes how Illusions work, then they can work. But as written, they have very little utility.

If we are going to assume that magic missile cannot fly toward a figment, then can someone explain the mechanics of targetting? The spell locates a thing-with-both-Charisma-and-Wisdom and a force ball explodes toward that thing?

RAW already explains targeting:

Target or Targets: Some spells have a target or targets. You cast these spells on creatures or objects, as defined by the spell itself. You must be able to see or touch the target, and you must specifically choose that target. You do not have to select your target until you finish casting the spell.

...

If you ever try to cast a spell in conditions where the characteristics of the spell cannot be made to conform, the casting fails and the spell is wasted.

Figments are not creatures and the targeting rules within Mirror Image does not state that the targeting of those images allows for an exception of the normal spell conformation rules.

Mirror Image explicitly gives multiple targets that the caster must select from and the targeting rules state that the caster must select, hence, there is no "all missiles hit the caster since the images are figments" rule either.