Magic of Eberron (Book Approval)
Rystil Arden
First Post
This probably actually is not the first time we've added spells/infusions to a list where the class gets everything on the list, but I forgot to mention this before the last time, so it bears critical importance:Erekose13 said:
How are we going to handle that situation? My immediate answer is that the only fair way to deal with Clerics is to run it like I run my home games where they pay the typical Wizard price for scribing (but not researching) new spells to get access to new spells, but with Artificers and their troublesome 'Spontaneous Access to Everything' it is more troublesome, as every new Infusion makes the Artificer significantly more powerful. I would say at least charge them the Wizard price, and at most don't charge them that price but make them swap out from the standard list to add new ones. What we need to avoid at all costs is eventually reaching a state after many approvals where Joe Player with no Eberron books is playing in a game with Jim Warbucks with every book, they both have Artificers, and Jim has spontaneous access to ten times as many options as Joe. This is going to make a big difference
stonegod
Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
We already added all the infusions from Races of Eberron (though that is a small number).Rystil Arden said:
Artificers have a rule for adding new infusions as per the ECS: A DC 20+spell level Spellcraft check. Its the only real reason to have Spellcraft as an artificer (as they cannot counterspell and don't get detect magic). Of our current Artificers, only one has any ranks in it (but, we have not added any significant # of infusions).
As an alternative or in addition (if the spellcraft check is insufficient or only for esoteric ones), I'd recommend doings something like giving them 1 or 2 infusions when they gain a level.
And realize, with any system put in place, an artificer can also UMD up a scroll of the infusion. Its temporary access, but still access.
Moggthegob
First Post
See i disagree wih making clerics have to pay for thier new spells. Thats the archivists big disadvantage and if you make the cleric do it too that archivist becomes pretty attractive for caster type divine spell casters( as in its no contest anymore)Rystil Arden said:
Rystil Arden
First Post
The Archivist has to pay to add anything beyond two per level, so it is balanced versus the core Cleric when you look at the vast list the core Cleric has--the Archivist would have to be insanely rich just to add those core spells, since she doesn't get all the core spells to start and the Cleric does. Do you agree it's balanced then?Moggthegob said:
Now if you add the entire Spell Compendium and all Eberron supplements and you aren't careful about it, the Cleric has something like 4 to 5x as many spells that just randomly appear on her spell list. Assuming the player is rich enough to own all these books IRL, this gives her character a huge advantage in flexibility when preparing spells each morning at no cost. Not only is it unfair to the Archivist, whose disadvantage was just multiplied by a large amount, it's incredibly unfair to the Favoured Soul, who was already weaker than the Cleric, since the Favoured Soul can never add more spells known to her list.
Rystil Arden
First Post
UMDing up a scroll of the infusion is perfectly reasonable IMO. Adding infusions to a spontaneous list that they can choose from at any time is a substantial power boost. With each non-useless infusion that you add for a given level, the Artificer gains a visible and substantial boost in power. The analogy is adding Spells Known to the Sorcerer--that wouldn't be fair, right?stonegod said:
stonegod
Spawn of Khyber/LEB Judge
But, at the same time, most of those spells are combat oriented (must be cast then) whereas the majority of infusions take more than a minute to cast. It also does not address the current extant mechanics for adding infusions (Spellcraft check).Rystil Arden said:
We could take a page from the other spontaneous casting/all known classes and allow them to add 1 for free every 3/4 levels or so. But would that be in addition to or inplace of the Spellcraft check?
Rystil Arden
First Post
I would be 100% willing to allow the Cleric, Artificer, and all other spontaneous/all known casters to add 1 for free every 3 or 4 levels if that's the only way they get access to them, since that won't add up to huge amounts. I think it would be in place of the Spellcraft check in the Artificer's case, but explain it to me--the Artificer just rolls a Spellcraft check with no other cost or mechanism, or does she have to also pay money and time first? Otherwise, what's to stop her from rolling many many times until she succeeds?stonegod said:
Rystil Arden
First Post
I assume it expends the scroll in the attempt. I would be willing to accept that process happily in most cases (and I suggest the same for Clerics learning new spells!). However, I am leery about the Artificer's spontaneous access to all spells. How about this--we use the by-the-book process for Artificers in learning new infusions, but we only let them have spontaneous access to a number of infusions equal to the number in the Eberron book. So each day, they can swap out any number of infusions from the regular Eberron book for any number of new infusions known, and vice versa, but never in greater number than they started with. This is still quite powerful--it's tantamount to a Sorcerer who swap out her spells known each day, but I'm much more comfortable with that. Does that sound good?stonegod said:
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