Magic Weapon Creation

Brown Jenkin

First Post
I am playing a character for the first time with the Craft Magic Arms and Armour feat. I have a question on caster level and total bonuses. As far as I can tell from the rules for straight up pluses (+1 to +5) this is based on caster level/3. Now for other abilities they have specific caster levels depending on the ability with the DMG listing things like CL:8 or CL14. These extra abilities are priced though as a +1 or +2 bonus added onto the regular pluses. If I am reading things right though that is only for pricing. So say a 8th level caster has a +2 weapon (6th level minimum for the regular pluses) and wants to a a CL:8 ability worth a +1 bonus in cost. Would he be able too even tough a straight up +3 is not available till 9th level?

Am I interpreting things properly?
 

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VanRichten

First Post
The character in question would have to actually be 9th level. The Level required to make such an item is based on the total of the pluses x 3.

B = Bonus
L = Level required to create

B x 3 = L
3 x 3 = 9
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
VanRichten said:
The character in question would have to actually be 9th level. The Level required to make such an item is based on the total of the pluses x 3.

No, it's not. It's the greater of the two requirements - the requirement for the enhancement bonus, and the requirement for the special ability.

If you have multiple special abilities, they're considered individually, not added together.

The +2 Defending weapon has a required caster level that is the higher of 6 (for the +2 enhancement bonus) and 8 (for the Defending ability). The +2 Defending Holy weapon might have a market price modifier of +5, but its required caster level is the highest of 6 (for the +2 enhancement bonus), 8 (for the Defending ability), and 7 (for the Holy ability). So for both weapons, the minimum caster level is 8.

Caster Level for Weapons: The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description. For an item with only an enhancement bonus and no other abilities, the caster level is three times the enhancement bonus. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

-Hyp.
 

irdeggman

First Post
VanRichten said:
The character in question would have to actually be 9th level. The Level required to make such an item is based on the total of the pluses x 3.

B = Bonus
L = Level required to create

B x 3 = L
3 x 3 = 9


This is incorrect.

Creating a magic weapon has a special prerequisite: The creator’s caster level must be at least three times the enhancement bonus of the weapon. If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met.

Only the "enhancement" bonus has the 3 x CL requirement.

Other "special" properties may have different CL prerequisites. These add to the "cost" as if the Enhancment" bonus was effectively higher, but it does not change the enhancement bonus.

AThe max enahancement bonus a non-epic weapon can have is +5

The max total bonuses a non-epic level weapon can have is +10.

See the note on the weapon bonus/price table

2 A weapon can’t actually have a bonus higher than +5. Use these lines to determine price when special abilities are added in.

The table goes to +10 which if this required a Cl of 3 times the bonus would mean a 30th level caster (an epic level character).

For example to create a +1 bane/distance longbow - requires a CL of 3 (with a character level of 5 to qualify for the feat) and not a 9 since there are no "special" caste level requirements for either bane or distance enhancements. But cost is calculated as if the weaponwere a +3 one.

Now if the item was instead a +1 frost longbow it would require a CL of 8 (minimum requirment for the frost enhancement) with cost as if a +2 weapon..
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
irdeggman said:
For example to create a +1 bane/distance longbow - requires a CL of 3 (with a character level of 5 to qualify for the feat) and not a 9 since there are no "special" caste level requirements for either bane or distance enhancements. But cost is calculated as if the weaponwere a +3 one.

Now if the item was instead a +1 frost longbow it would require a CL of 8 (minimum requirment for the frost enhancement) with cost as if a +2 weapon..

Confused - how do you get a requirement of 8th for Frost without also getting a requirement of 8th for Bane and 6th for Distance?

-Hyp.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Based on the DMG, I would say that Hyp's original post is correct: you need to individually meet all the CL requirements of the item, but they don't stack up.

But the DMG errata says that the listed CL is not itself a prereq, but instead only the actual prereq requirements matter. So the distance property would have a prereq of CL 7 (to get clairaudiance/voyance) the frost property would have a prereq of CL 9 (for a wizard to get ice storm), and defending would have CL 1 (for shield or shield of faith).

It's not totally obvious to me if the errata text is supposed to apply to the CL requirement on a plain enhancement bonus.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
jaelis said:
But the DMG errata says that the listed CL is not itself a prereq, but instead only the actual prereq requirements matter.

I'd say that this is true for everything except weapon and armor special abilities, because while the general rule under Creating Magic Items (per the errata) is that minimum CL is that required to cast the prerequisite spells, the specific text of "Caster Level for Armor and Shields" and "Caster Level for Weapons" - which is unchanged by errata - states that "The caster level of a weapon with a special ability is given in the item description" and "If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met".

It's not totally obvious to me if the errata text is supposed to apply to the CL requirement on a plain enhancement bonus.

I would say the errata text applies to the general section, not to the sections that were left unchanged... and the specific rule for weapons (or amor/shields) takes precedence over the rule for items in general when they come into conflict.

... the frost property would have a prereq of CL 9 (for a wizard to get ice storm)

Hire a druid to assist. He gets Chill Metal at level 3.

-Hyp.
 
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jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Hypersmurf said:
"If an item has both an enhancement bonus and a special ability, the higher of the two caster level requirements must be met".
Given the errata, wouldn't you say that the CL requirement for a special ability is the CL needed to cast the prereq spells? It seems like the quote above should be interpreted through that lens. As I understand, the item caster level listed is not meant to be a requirement at all, and the weapon/armor rules don't seem to specifically say that it is.
 
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Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
jaelis said:
Given the errata, wouldn't you say that the CL requirement for a special ability is the CL needed to cast the prereq spells?

The errata isn't for that paragraph. It's for an entirely different - and more general - section.

As I understand, the item caster level listed is not meant to be a requirement at all, and the weapon/armor rules don't seem to specifically say that it is.

The Weapon/Armor rules say: for special abilities, caster level is given in the description. For enhancement bonuses, caster level is 3x bonus. For both, the higher of the two requirements must be met.

When there's a paragraph that says "Here is caster level A. Here is caster level B. You must meet the higher of the two caster level requirements", I don't think there's a lot of room for doubt that "the two caster level requirements" referred to are A and B...

-Hyp.
 

irdeggman

First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Confused - how do you get a requirement of 8th for Frost without also getting a requirement of 8th for Bane and 6th for Distance?

-Hyp.


You're confused?

I'm just old - don't know I how missed those.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Hypersmurf said:
When there's a paragraph that says "Here is caster level A. Here is caster level B. You must meet the higher of the two caster level requirements", I don't think there's a lot of room for doubt that "the two caster level requirements" referred to are A and B...
But my point is that the errata draws a distinction between the caster level of an item and the CL requirement to make it. We all agree that the CL of the defending ability is 8. So yes, the caster level (8) is given in the description, just as your quote indicates. But the line subsequently refers to meeting the CL requirement of the defending ability, which per the errata (I would say) is a separate thing, here CL 1. So yes, the caster must individually meet the higher of the two CL requirements. But that doesn't imply that the CL requirement of the defending ability is 8.

When there's a paragraph that says "Here is caster level A. Here is caster level B. You must meet the higher of the two caster level requirements", I don't think there's a lot of room for doubt that "the two caster level requirements" referred to are A and B...
I guess I am basically saying that, but that's because I feel like the errata draws a distinction between CL and CL requirement that was not originally present.
 
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VanRichten

First Post
My apologies as Irdeggman is correct. The formula I did state is specific only to enhancement bonus. And he is also correct that the abilities you wish to add are based on specific class level given under the ability. So in the case of the OPs questions yes you would have be be 8th level to create a +2 Weapon with an additional +1 Ability that required a CL of 8.

I had misread the OP's statement and instead posted a response based on GP price rather than what was actually requested. In this case you can use the formula to determine the price of the item as all "plus" effects stack for the determination of the cost. In the example given to create such an item would be the base cost + masterworked value + cost of a +3 total on the magic weapon chart.
 

Hypersmurf

Moderatarrrrh...
jaelis said:
But my point is that the errata draws a distinction between the caster level of an item and the CL requirement to make it. We all agree that the CL of the defending ability is 8. So yes, the caster level (8) is given in the description, just as your quote indicates. But the line subsequently refers to meeting the CL requirement of the defending ability, which per the errata (I would say) is a separate thing, here CL 1. So yes, the caster must individually meet the higher of the two CL requirements. But that doesn't imply that the CL requirement of the defending ability is 8.

I think, in the context, it strongly implies that.

I guess I am basically saying that, but that's because I feel like the errata draws a distinction between CL and CL requirement that was not originally present.

I agree... in the general case. But I think the specific text for Armor/Shields and Weapons contradicts that general case... for the specific cases of Armor/Shields and Weapons.

-Hyp.
 

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