Make me a Roman Legionaire

[Emiricol]

A quick note - Lorica Segmentata is NOT heavy armor as we think of it, it was medium armor designed to maximize mobility over protection. Banded armor as we think of it traditionally sort of evolved from Lorica Segmentata.

In game terms, it might be:

Cost: 450; AC +5; Max Dex +3; Armor Check Penalty -1; Arcane Sp. Failure 20%, Speed 30'; Weight 20

Some would say that due to its design for maximum mobility, the AC could reduce by 1 if no large shield is used.

Note that historically, there were no arrows that could penetrate Lorica Segmentata on a straight hit, as the metal plates were designed to bend and be easily bent back, but it didn't cover much beyond the torso, but that's kind of hard to model in game terms.

 

[maddman75]

Maybe breastplate stats would be more appropriate for Lorica Segmentata?

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Yeah, Emirikol and Maddman75, I tend to agree, the Breatsplate is perhaps more accurate a depiction, in game terms at least, if not function. The Lorica was fashioned into flexible PLATES, and it was more protective than chainmail, but it wasn't Plate Armor of the 15th century. Eh, those damned game mechanics!

Interestingly, according to Warfare In The Classical World, by John Warry, it discusses how there was no system of "obscelesence" in the ancient world, and that several different forms of armour were worn throughout the Legions, as different types and styles of armour often never really went away entirely. Thus, I suppose, you could have a certain Centurion wearing chainmail, while another wears a Breatsplate, while another wears Banded Mail. Apparently, various Roman armour smiths commissioned limited types of very heavy armour, as well as other types of armour. While I think Banded Mail can fit well, I'm fond of Breatplates as mechanically more accurate. One can just hand-wave the actual material involved!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Greetings!

Well, Black Dirge, I would submit the following:

Roman Centurion
Level 4 Expert/Level 6 Fighter: (Focus skills on Craft-Carpentry/Craft-Stonemasonry; Profession-Carpenter; Profession-Stonemason; Knowledge-Siege Engineering; Knowledge-War; Knowledge-Streetwise; Knowledge-History; Diplomacy; Gather Information; Intimidate; Knowledge-Nobility; as well as Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, and Wilderness Lore.

Such skills are essential for providing the needed skill ranks to reflect a Centurion's long experience, as well as diverse skills as an engineer, combat soldier, and officer. Centurions not only work daily with the legionnaires of their unit, but they also interact on a daily basis with the aristocratic Tribunes as well as the Legate (or commanding General)of the legion. The Centurion is often responsible for teaching younger legionnaires the skills that the Roman Legionnaires are famous for.

Equipment: Banded Mail seems to be the best D&D equivalent of the Lorica Segmenta, and provide him with a large Steel Shield, a Masterwork Shortsword, Masterwork Dagger, Helmet, cloak, and a wooden rod, which is a symbol of his authority. Hobnail sandals, harness, belt, small pouch, waterskin, and you're good to go!

Feats: Hmmm...Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Leadership; Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack; Expert Tactician; Iron Will.

These feats seem to me to accurately reflect the Centurion's ferocious fighting capability, as well as skill with tactics, leadership, and universal Iron Will. To become a Centurion, a person had to be incredible tough, driven, disciplined, and ruthless, as well as skilled beyond all other lesser legionnaires. Centurions, were, after all, the best men of the entire Legion. They were selcted from men who were the top ten percent!

Hope this helps!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Thanks, those are great ideas especially about the centurion having expert levels, it makes good historical sense.

I agree that Lorica Segmentata would best be represented by the breast plate since it provided little to no lower body protection.

I do have a question though, wouldn't the traditional Scutum be represented as a body shield instead of a large shield. It portected from the neck to the knees, seems a bit large for just a "large shield".

Dirge

 

[mmadsen]

As I've said before, while lorica segmentata is armor composed of steel bands, it doesn't match D&D's notion of Banded Mail; it's not full-body, and it's not that heavy. Mechanically, it matches D&D's Breastplate much better.

I don't see the need to have the pilum require an Exotic Weapon Proficiency; it's just a javelin that "breaks" on impact.

Lords of Darkness's misnamed Phalanx Fighting Feat fits legionaries well. It gives a +1 armor bonus and gives you the option of forming a shield wall (one quarter cover) if you're armed with a large shield and a light weapon. (Why is Phalanx Fighting misnamed? Because the phalanx is the tight formation used by Greek spearmen, not Roman swordsmen, and the Feat cannot work with a spear. In fact, in D&D, a Spartan Hoplite can't use his 8' spear with his large shield at all.)

I disagree with SHARK's Feat list: Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Leadership; Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack; Expert Tactician; Iron Will. Of those, I see Power Attack, Cleave, and Great Cleave more as a Germanic barbarian Feats really, and I don't see Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack fitting a tight-formation fighter like a legionary. Leadership certainly fits a Centurion though, and Iron Will's plausible enough. Expert Tactician certainly sounds appropriate for a Centurion, but I'm not sure if it's all that necessary.

On the other hand, a legionary should have Endurance (even though it's a lame Feat), and maybe Great Fortitude and Run. Weapon Focus (Gladius) obviously fits. Improved Bull Rush also fits Roman legionaries (and Spartan Hoplites), as the initial clash often involved a "scrum" between shield walls. This doesn't figure into D&D combat too much though.

Oriental Adventures has plenty of occidental goodness, including the Great Teamwork Feat that seems tailor-made for professional soldiers; it offers +4 for flanking. Improved Aid similarly offers +4 for Aid Another.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Excellent Dirge! Well, visually, you might think that the Scutum is a "body shield" but in the real world, it behaved more like a large shield, mechanics wise, than a Wall Shield in the D&D game. In Ceasar's Legion, by Stephen Dando Collins, among other books describing combat with Roman Legionnaires, the shield was very mobile, and still there were wounds recieved in hand-to-hand combat, as they moved around and so on. Essentially, the Scutum, did not protect the legionnaire as the D&D mechanics determine it, but instead, the large shield seems more accurate as a reflection of the real-world use and capabilities.

Hope that makes sense!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Hmmm...well, mmadsen, as usual, I like your reasoning, but yet...it seems that in Caesar's Legion, the legionnaires while fighting in formation, do a lot of *dropping their enemies* (suggesting power attack, cleave and great cleave)--while also during combat, their seems no lack of space or ability for them to dodge about and move as they fight, (which suggests dodge and mobility, and spring attack) which makes me think that perhaps you interpret the Roman formation as being more restrictive to their movement than their performance would suggest.

True, they were not as free and wild of fighters as German barbarians, and I would dovetail that into a restriction of them using the Gladius, rather than the longsword, battle axe, or two-handed sword, as those weapons obviously required more space to use--which the Germans prefered, and the Roman formation fighting would discourage. Having said that, I don't quite think it was so restrictive as to preclude the feats that I suggested, as noted.

I agree that the feats you mentioned from Oriental Adventures are excellent, and should be added to the list!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Dispater]

I would add Expertise, Endurance, Shield Expert - and Sisterhood of Arms (from the Kalamar PG) to the list of feats.

 

[Scarab]

Another vote for Phalanx Fighting. It's standard issue for dwarven militia in my campaign, though I've allowed it to be used with weapons that you have Weapon Specialization in. As written it only allows light weapons.

 

[Whodat]

I’m not sure if this is going to help you develop a Roman legionnaire, this is just a little FYI.

The Roman legions were the first armies in history that used coordinated field artillery in conjunction with their infantry battles. I’m not talking about those huge siege catapults that were used to hammer down city walls, although they had those too. The Romans actually had small stone-throwing catapults (called ballistae) and small spear-throwing devices (called scorpions) that were manned by a crew of three to five men.

These crews would be standing just behind the main line, maneuver, load their weapons and fire directly into the enemy – either in gaps in the main line, or over the heads of their own troops.

The most surprising thing about these weapons was how light they were. The crew could literally pick them up and run with them wherever the infantry needed additional support. And yet as light as they were, they packed a lethal punch. If any of you have ever seen pictures of the skeleton that was uncovered in Britain at the siege of Maiden Castle, you will know what I mean. For those of you who haven’t seen it, the skeleton likely belonged to a British defender. It was found with a Roman ballista head still imbedded in its spine!

Now, I’m not sure if this tactic is going to be a good idea in a FRPG setting where a wizard could take down an entire cohort with a single fireball spell.