D&D 5E Make SPELLS Balanced

[Yaarel]

Here finetunes the spell list for the 3rd Slot.

3rd SLOT

Spoiler

Unworthy of Spell Preparation − RITUAL NOT SPELL
Feign Death → Medicine Check
Galders Tower
Create Food and Water → Survival Check
Speak With Dead ("DM Gives Hint") → Religion Check
Plant Growth
Meld into Stone
Speak with Plants ("DM Gives Hint")
Glyph of Warding
Catnip (alteration of the setting Resting mechanic)
Phantom Steed (demote to 2nd Slot and Good there but 1 minute casting time less useful)
Tiny Servant (Not Bad but 1 minute casting time less useful)
Magic Circle (Not Bad but 1 minute casting time less useful)
Animate Dead (Good but 1 minute casting time less useful)
Clairvoyance (Good but 10 minute casting time less useful
Tiny Hut of Leomunds (Excellent but 1 minute casting time less useful)

Demote to a Cantrip − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Water Breathing

Demote to 1st SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Wall of Water
Daylight
Water Walk

Demotion to 2nd SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Flame Arrows
Crusaders Mantle
Wind Wall
Wall of Sand
Sending ("Telepathy")
Tongues ("Telepathy")
Vampiric Touch
Conjure Barrage

Less Useful − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Elemental Weapon
Remove Curse
Nondetection
Gaseous Form
Hunger of Hadar

Not Bad − Forgivable − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/DEMOTION
Bestow Curse
Ashardalons Stride
Spirit Shroud
Intellect Fortress
Beacon of Hope
Blinding Smite
Stinking Cloud
Tidal Wave
Blink

Good − Standard Effect For 3rd SLOT
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm
Minute Meteors
Slow
Erupting Earth
Pulse Wave
Call Lightning
Hypnotic Pattern
Fear
Thunderstep
Dispel Magic

Excellent − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/PROMOTION
Haste
Spirit Guardians
Summon Lesser Demons
Conjure Animals
Summon Undead
Summon Fey
Summon Shadowspawn
Enemies Abound
Fast Friends
Mass Healing Word
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Arrow
Major Image
Aura of Vitality
Fly
Counterspell
Revivify
Fireball

 

[ECMO3]

Hypnotic Pattern and Fear are similar in effectiveness. Hypnotic Pattern is slightly better by making the creatures Incapacitated, but Fear moves the creatures away so one need not deal with them immediately.

Notably both spells can affect teammates, thus greatly reducing the usefulness.

I will probably relocate both to Good − being standard for a 3rd Slot.

If the DM plays on easy mode they are similar, if the DM plays smart monsters smart Fear is a lot better.

The problem with hypnotic pattern is one uneffected enemy can end the effect on someone with an action and that enemy does not lose a turn getting out of the effect. This means as long as one enemy saves it should last no longer than 2 turns. For example you target 10 guys with HP. 9 of them fail the save and are charmed. The one that is not charmed uses his action to free one that is, that one uses his action to free another one, that one uses his action to free another one...... in one round all of them are free of it. That is how it works RAW, if the DM does not play the monsters that way, claims they would not know or try that, or houserules it so enemies can't act on the round they are shaken out then they are comparable. I will note though that damaging enemies also ends the effect so even in this case I would still give the edge to fear.

Fear by contrast is impossible to get out of as long as the caster is in sight. If you cast Fear in a room that is a dead end, the fight is over for any that fail the save (unless the caster loses concentration). They can't leave the room because of frightened, they can't take any actions and they don't get to save again. Outside in an open area any that fail have to dash away for an entire minute since they can't break line of sight, all you have to do is chase them and keep wailing them with AOOs (or ranged attacks). Best case for the monsters is it is in an area with a lot of vegetation or underground where they can run around a corner and out of sight and save again. In those cases it is at least 2 lost turns as they take one turn dashing away. If they manage to make the first save at the end of that turn, then they need to dash the next turn to get back to the same place they were when the spell was cast.

Fear is by far the most effective spell available at 3rd level.

Character optimizers and the 5e designers themselves regard Fireball as an unusually powerful spell.

Yeah but they are wrong it isn't very powerful in play, certainly not compared to control spells.

That said, it occurs to me that Lightning Bolt feels more like a Single-Target spell. Yes, it might also affect one or two other creatures in the line, but that possibility is "situational" thus less useful.

I find fireball more situational because of the large area. To cast fireball effectively against melee goons a wizard usually needs to win inititative outright, beating both the goons and his own melee allies. I think your quote kind of gets to the point. I would say in a multi-target combat, Lighting bolt can almost always target two enemies, but Lightning bolt CAN be used against a single target and it CAN be used in almost any combat at any point in that combat.

Fireball is a more powerful opener, if the wizard gets a very high initiative, and if there are a lot of enemies but that in itself is situational.

Now if you are playing an evocation wizard that can sculpt spells that is a different story.

 

[Yaarel]

Yeah but they are wrong it isn't very powerful in play, certainly not compared to control spells.

I find fireball more situational because of the large area. To cast fireball effectively against melee goons a wizard usually needs to win inititative outright, beating both the goons and his own melee allies. I think your quote kind of gets to the point. I would say in a multi-target combat, Lighting bolt can almost always target two enemies, but Lightning bolt CAN be used against a single target and it CAN be used in almost any combat at any point in that combat.

Fireball is a more powerful opener, if the wizard gets a very high initiative, and if there are a lot of enemies but that in itself is situational.

Now if you are playing an evocation wizard that can sculpt spells that is a different story.

The character optimizers and designers who focus exactly on how powerful a mechanic is in play identify Fireball as "very powerful in play".

If the DM plays on easy mode they are similar, if the DM plays smart monsters smart Fear is a lot better.

The problem with hypnotic pattern is one uneffected enemy can end the effect on someone with an action and that enemy does not lose a turn getting out of the effect. This means as long as one enemy saves it should last no longer than 2 turns. For example you target 10 guys with HP. 9 of them fail the save and are charmed. The one that is not charmed uses his action to free one that is, that one uses his action to free another one, that one uses his action to free another one...... in one round all of them are free of it. That is how it works RAW, if the DM does not play the monsters that way, claims they would not know or try that, or houserules it so enemies can't act on the round they are shaken out then they are comparable. I will note though that damaging enemies also ends the effect so even in this case I would still give the edge to fear.

Fear by contrast is impossible to get out of as long as the caster is in sight. If you cast Fear in a room that is a dead end, the fight is over for any that fail the save (unless the caster loses concentration). They can't leave the room because of frightened, they can't take any actions and they don't get to save again. Outside in an open area any that fail have to dash away for an entire minute since they can't break line of sight, all you have to do is chase them and keep wailing them with AOOs (or ranged attacks). Best case for the monsters is it is in an area with a lot of vegetation or underground where they can run around a corner and out of sight and save again. In those cases it is at least 2 lost turns as they take one turn dashing away. If they manage to make the first save at the end of that turn, then they need to dash the next turn to get back to the same place they were when the spell was cast.

Fear is by far the most effective spell available at 3rd level.

Re Hypnotic Pattern, if the creatures are wasting their action that is extremely valuable to the caster. Even two rounds of nonaction is a long time in a combat encounter.

I agree, Fear has the edge, but both Fear and Hypnotic Pattern are comparable.

An advantage of Hypnotic is its range. Because the Fear and Hypnotic spells target allies as well as hostiles, casting it in the distance at a cluster of hostiles is valuable.

 

[ECMO3]

[edit.]


The character optimizers and designers who focus exactly on how powerful a mechanic is in play identify Fireball as "very powerful in play".

Most of the optimizers I've seen rank it middle of the road.

Here Treantmonk ranks Firreball as 2nd most overated spell in the game, my experience is similar to his:

 

[Yaarel]

my experience is similar to his:

That is fair enough.

At the same time, in the spell rankings here, it is the aggregate of all players (that are reasonably skilled at optimizing) that determines a rank.

Even when some optimizers employ nondamage spells more effectively, most optimizers use damage spells more effectively, relating to "focus fire".

@Treantmonk specifically advocates the potency of Wizard mobility spells (that grant or prevent tactical positioning for battlefield control). Meanwhile the Fighter (and others) are supposed to fulfill the necessity of dealing damage.

 

[Yaarel]

The 4th slot is the most powerful spells that most gamers will ever see. 83% of D&D campaigns will end at level 8 or sooner.

Tier 1-4: 57%
Tier 5-8: 36%
Tier 9-12: 12%
Tier 13-16: 3%
Tier 17-20: 2%

Because slot 4 is a high slot that over a third of campaigns are likely to see, it should include fun and effective spells.

 

[Yaarel]

Here is the spell list for the 4th slot.

4th SLOT

Spoiler

Unworthy of Spell Preparation − RITUAL NOT SPELL
Hallucinatory Terrain (not even worth a cantrip)
Leomunds Secret Chest
Widogasts Vault of Amber
Galders Speedy Courier
Divination ("DM gives a hint")
Private Sanctum (Less Useful)
Control Water (Less Useful)
Fabricate (Not Bad but prohibitive casting time)
Conjure Minor Elementals (Not Bad but prohibitive casting time)
Find Greater Steed (Good if after normal horse and before flying mount)

Demotion to 2nd Slot − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Faithful Hound
Grasping Vine
Guardian of Nature
Locate Creature

Demotion to 3rd Slot − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Elemental Bane
Stone Shape
Guardian of Faith
Shadow of Moil
Dominate Beast
Ice Storm
Aura of Life
Wall of Fire
Phantasmal Killer

Less Useful − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Stoneskin

Not Bad − Forgivable − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/DEMOTION
Aura of Purity
Storm Sphere
Confusion
Compulsion
Freedom of Movement
Conjure Woodland Beings (DM decides creatures; Excellent if pixies)
Summon Elemental
Summon Greater Demon

Good − Standard Effect for 4th Slot
Blight
Dimension Door
Giant Insect
Fire Shield
Staggering Smite
Arcane Eye
Sickening radiance
Vitriolic Sphere
Summon Construct
Raulothims Psychic Lance
Evards Black Tentacles

Excellent − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/PROMOTION
Summon Aberration
Otilukes Resilient Sphere
Death Ward
Water Sphere
Greater Invisibility
Widogasts Web of Fire
Gravity Sinkhole
Banishment
Charm Monster
Polymorph

 

[mellored]

I wouldn't mind seeing some spells consolidated. Just to shrink the list a little bit.

I.e. hold person / hold monster can be put into a single block.
As well as dominate beast/ person/ monster.
Probably some others too.

Oh, and no conjure 8, or even 4 creatures. It just boggs down the game.

 

[Yaarel]

Oh, and no conjure 8, or even 4 creatures. It just boggs down the game.

If I understand correctly, the new "Summon" spells will obsolete the earlier 2014 "Conjure" spells.

All of the Summon spells summon only a single creature. (So the designers might be of the same mind as you here.)

Happily, the new Summon spells are worth their official slot. They require one action to cast. But within the slot the spell benefit varies noticeably from Excellent to Good to Not Bad.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

The 4th slot is the most powerful spells that most gamers will ever see. 83% of D&D campaigns will end at level 8 or sooner.

Tier 1-4: 57%
Tier 5-8: 36%
Tier 9-12: 12%
Tier 13-16: 3%
Tier 17-20: 2%

Because slot 4 is a high slot that over a third of campaigns are likely to see, it should include fun and effective spells.

I never like this argument. It's my suspicion that the reason a lot of campaigns end early is that higher level D&D is not well balanced and breaks down. Higher levels spells are a big part of this. It is especially important to balance and rework spells at higher levels.

But perhaps that is a different thread rather than trying to balance spells within their current power levels.