I do not want spells to be more balanced. I think the gmaeplay is better when you have some great spells, some mediocre and some poor. Only a couple spells need to be changed - off the top of my head True Strike and Witchbolt.
Further if we are really going to balance spells then all damaging spells need to do more damage. A 3rd level Fear is way, way more powerful than a 8d6 fireball and a 3rd level Hypnotic Pattern is as well unless you have a really smart DM. If you want to balance these you would need Fireball to do about 11d6 on a 3rd level slot to compete.
I'm no more a fan of Waste of Slot Spells than I am of Waste of Deck Space Cards. It's just a way to bloat the books and make it look like there are a lot more meaningful options than there really are. Whenever balance is possible, it should be sought. There are areas where balance isn't really possible - How much damage is a Charm Person worth? - but where possible, it helps make everything less of a chore.
At the end of the day, I find all these spell questions usually end up at this point:
"As a DM, I find players always taking X spell because it is [overpowered, too useful etc.] to be boring. I want it changed so that a wider variety of spells get chosen."
Then I remember the important thing...
- Player happiness supercedes my complaints of "boredom".
Yes, I see these spells more often, because I DM for more players than players play for DMs. So even though I may have seen Shield now at the last 5 tables I've run... this will be the FIRST time that player has played with Shield in years. So who am I to bitch that this player took Shield because it's a good spell?
At some point we DMs need to remember we are not here just for ourselves... we are here to let our players play what they want. So if they want to cast Shield, or Fireball, or take Great Weapon Mastery... who am I to shut that down just because I had players in the last campaign do the same thing? That's not my concern.
As a player who can never fully shut off knowledge of mathematical superiority, I would like to not have to fight that knowledge to try something different and cool. This was actually a huge problem in 4E, because abilities didn't up-scale, you instead got a different ability entirely if you wanted to keep up with damage, so you'd have to give up a prone effect for a daze effect or whatever even if the prone effect was more interesting, because otherwise you left behind multiple dice of damage.
At the end of the day, I find all these spell questions usually end up at this point:
"As a DM, I find players always taking X spell because it is [overpowered, too useful etc.] to be boring. I want it changed so that a wider variety of spells get chosen."
Then I remember the important thing...
- Player happiness supercedes my complaints of "boredom".
Yes, I see these spells more often, because I DM for more players than players play for DMs. So even though I may have seen Shield now at the last 5 tables I've run... this will be the FIRST time that player has played with Shield in years. So who am I to bitch that this player took Shield because it's a good spell?
At some point we DMs need to remember we are not here just for ourselves... we are here to let our players play what they want. So if they want to cast Shield, or Fireball, or take Great Weapon Mastery... who am I to shut that down just because I had players in the last campaign do the same thing? That's not my concern.
I generally play casters, and I would very much like better balanced spells. There is always a tradeoff between concept and power, but it should be as small as possible. A necromancer who wants to lean into the necromancy theme should be able to pick vampiric touch as their 3rd-level damage spell and have it be effective.
I generally play casters, and I would very much like better balanced spells. There is always a tradeoff between concept and power, but it should be as small as possible. A necromancer who wants to lean into the necromancy theme should be able to pick vampiric touch as their 3rd-level damage spell and have it be effective.
Sure, that's fine. My comment was mainly towards those of us who find it "boring" when the same spells get taken by players all the time because they seem better or more useful than others. Our "boredom" from this side of the screen doesn't matter if the players are happy with what they have.
As a player who can never fully shut off knowledge of mathematical superiority, I would like to not have to fight that knowledge to try something different and cool. This was actually a huge problem in 4E, because abilities didn't up-scale, you instead got a different ability entirely if you wanted to keep up with damage, so you'd have to give up a prone effect for a daze effect or whatever even if the prone effect was more interesting, because otherwise you left behind multiple dice of damage.
Unworthy of Spell Preparation − RITUAL NOT SPELL
Feign Death → Medicine Check
Create Food and Water → Survival Check
Speak With Dead ("DM Gives Hint") → Religion Check
Plant Growth
Meld into Stone
Speak with Plants ("DM Gives Hint")
Glyph of Warding
Demote to a Cantrip − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Water Breathing
Demote to 1st SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Daylight
Phantom Steed
Water Walk
Demotion to 2nd SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Sending ("Telepathy")
Tongues ("Telepathy")
Wall of Water
Flame Arrows
Vampiric Touch
Conjure Barrage
Less Useful − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Elemental Weapon
Remove Curse
Nondetection
Gaseous Form
Wall of Sand
Wind Wall
Hunger of Hadar
Not Bad − Forgivable − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/DEMOTION
Bestow Curse
Beacon of Hope
Magic Circle
Blinding Smite
Crusaders Mantle
Stinking Cloud
Tidal Wave
Blink
Good − Standard Effect For 3rd SLOT
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm
Minute Meteors
Slow
Erupting Earth
Clairvoyance
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Spirit Guardians
Dispel Magic
Excellent − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/PROMOTION
Tiny Hut
Haste
Conjure Animals
Mass Healing Word
Hypnotic Pattern
Fear
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Arrow
Major Image
Aura of Vitality
Fly
Counterspell
Revivify
Fireball
Unworthy of Spell Preparation − RITUAL NOT SPELL
Feign Death → Medicine Check
Create Food and Water → Survival Check
Speak With Dead ("DM Gives Hint") → Religion Check
Plant Growth
Meld into Stone
Speak with Plants ("DM Gives Hint")
Glyph of Warding
Demote to a Cantrip − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Water Breathing
Demote to 1st SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Daylight
Phantom Steed
Water Walk
Demotion to 2nd SLOT − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Sending ("Telepathy")
Tongues ("Telepathy")
Wall of Water
Flame Arrows
Vampiric Touch
Conjure Barrage
Less Useful − NEEDS RETHINK/DEMOTION
Elemental Weapon
Remove Curse
Nondetection
Gaseous Form
Wall of Sand
Wind Wall
Hunger of Hadar
Not Bad − Forgivable − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/DEMOTION
Bestow Curse
Beacon of Hope
Magic Circle
Blinding Smite
Crusaders Mantle
Stinking Cloud
Tidal Wave
Blink
Good − Standard Effect For 3rd SLOT
Protection from Energy
Sleet Storm
Minute Meteors
Slow
Erupting Earth
Clairvoyance
Animate Dead
Call Lightning
Spirit Guardians
Dispel Magic
Excellent − NEEDS DOUBLECHECK/PROMOTION
Tiny Hut
Haste
Conjure Animals
Mass Healing Word
Hypnotic Pattern
Fear
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Arrow
Major Image
Aura of Vitality
Fly
Counterspell
Revivify
Fireball
I'd prefer that spells in general be keyed to caster level. Higher level = more effective. Upcasting spells, I feel, is a work around to that, and a symptom of having too many castable spells over the course of the day. Its no longer a resource that has to be managed, you can just upcast level spells because you have nothing better in that level slot, which brings me to:
@Yaarel and @ECMO3, I think I'd rather you took the "good and overtuned" categories, and dropped the rest. Do we really need 60 spells at 3rd level, when really the 24 "most powerful" are the ones likely to be almost always selected? There are literally hundreds of spells for spellcasters in the game, and only a very small portion get taken or even looked at. And while you're at it, drop the spells that step on other class abilities, that should cut them down too.
I get it that people like to have all the things, in the event that it might be useful sometime, but that could be a spells supplement. Have the core product be better focused and more balanced overall. But then, I know that's not the direction things are going.
