Making effective use of the Bard's Multiclass Mastery

[Artoomis]

Well, I admit my character is not optimized for combat, but I've used multiclassing to pick up 7 additional trained skills plus lots of additional encounter/daily powers.

13 trained skills (only 4 untrained). Even two of the untrained skills have an extra +1 to them from multiclassing.

He can be reasonable effective in combat, but is awe-inspiring when interacting with NPCs and/or skill challenges out of combat.

 

[Smeelbo]

It is actually the Jack of All Trades feat that is the sucker's bet, in my opinion.

I strong disagree. Combining Jack of All Trades with Skill Versatility yields +3 for every untrained skill. That's a lot of return for the investment of a single feat.

jack of all trades doesn´t work with bardic knowledge because both are feat bonuses...

Ah, but Bardic Knowledge can apply to trained skills, whereas Jack of All Trades only applies to untrained skills. Bardic Knowledge is almost as good as Skill Focus for all those skills, whereas Jack of All Trades is almost as good as Skill Focus for all untrained skills.

They actually complement each other quite nicely.

He can be reasonable effective in combat, but is awe-inspiring when interacting with NPCs and/or skill challenges out of combat.

If you had Jack of All Trades instead, you'd be almost as awesome, and have quite a number of feats to improve yourself in combat.

I remain unconvinced of the advantages of bard multi-multi-classing.

Smeelbo

 

[Mengu]

I remain unconvinced of the advantages of bard multi-multi-classing.

Even the fact that you can pick two multiclass feats is a bonus (I'm playing a warlord who would jump at the opportunity of picking up a second multi-class feat), but I think it's mostly just for some corner cases.

I gave this example already, but it's a good one. Say you're playing a halfling bard, and want a bit of striking nova power. Picking up Ranger and Rogue multiclass can give you exactly that. And you can add two more skills to your arsenal, one of which is thievery that you do not have access to as a bard, and get a racial bonus to.

A gnome bard could do some fun stuff with paladin multiclass for marking, warlock multiclass for eyebite and fade away shenanigans, rogue multi-class for extra damage, and ranger multiclass for stealth (to put that racial +2 to good use).

I don't really see picking up several multiclass feats as being the norm for a bard, it'll be more of the exception I think, but it certainly opens doors for some interesting options.

 

[Artoomis]

I...If you had Jack of All Trades instead, you'd be almost as awesome, and have quite a number of feats to improve yourself in combat.

I remain unconvinced of the advantages of bard multi-multi-classing.

Smeelbo

Nah... I'd rather have the trained skills plus Bardic Knowledge. +7 for trained skils vs. +3 for untrained. Plus, I still have +1 (and +2 in some cases) for untrained skills.

I did not take Jack of All Trades as it was not worth it.

I like my way - so much fun! All the extra powers. Cool.

Jack of All Trades is GREAT is most of your skills are untrained, though.

 

[Klaus]

I strong disagree. Combining Jack of All Trades with Skill Versatility yields +3 for every untrained skill. That's a lot of return for the investment of a single feat.Ah, but Bardic Knowledge can apply to trained skills, whereas Jack of All Trades only applies to untrained skills. Bardic Knowledge is almost as good as Skill Focus for all those skills, whereas Jack of All Trades is almost as good as Skill Focus for all untrained skills.

They actually complement each other quite nicely.If you had Jack of All Trades instead, you'd be almost as awesome, and have quite a number of feats to improve yourself in combat.

I remain unconvinced of the advantages of bard multi-multi-classing.

Smeelbo

A bard with Str 13 can dabble in Fighter, Barbarian, Ranger, in addition to Paladin, Sorcerer and Warlock. The first 3 classes give you a choice of trained skill, plus a daily ability (the barbarian's is specially neat, since it lasts for the whole encounter).

 

[DonAdam]

But then ... why not take Berserker's Fury (MC Barbarian) since I have the stats anyway?
It's not like you get any barbarian powers ... you just get a daily encounter-long +2 bonus to all damage rolls. Oh, and a skill.

Well, you could take Heart Strike (level 10 utility).

 

[Danceofmasks]

Well, you could ... it's a nice power, but ... is it worth a feat and a bard utility power?
'cos word of life is seriously awesome.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I strong disagree. Combining Jack of All Trades with Skill Versatility yields +3 for every untrained skill. That's a lot of return for the investment of a single feat.Ah, but Bardic Knowledge can apply to trained skills, whereas Jack of All Trades only applies to untrained skills. Bardic Knowledge is almost as good as Skill Focus for all those skills, whereas Jack of All Trades is almost as good as Skill Focus for all untrained skills.

They actually complement each other quite nicely.If you had Jack of All Trades instead, you'd be almost as awesome, and have quite a number of feats to improve yourself in combat.

I remain unconvinced of the advantages of bard multi-multi-classing.

Smeelbo

yes, but if you intend to take all knowledge skill you could as well multiclass a bit... if you only take knowledges in the beginning, your feat choice sounds good...

however if you try to specialize in insight or whatever, jack of all trades + bardic knowledge is not the way to go. It really depends on your taste.

As I said before: Two well balanced routes to go with either jack of all trades or 2-3 multiclass feats...
bardic knowlege could be handy for both routes, depending on your initial skill choices...

 

[Pickles JG]

Bards look very interesting - there are a whole bunch of different builds that leap to mind (not that I am sure all of them are terribly effective). Here are some I have looked at (I even played one of them once).

1) Skill Monkey. You can get all skills trained via multiclass feats by level 20 (16 as Human). Ironically you dump INT as the INT classes double up on Arcana. This gives you a raft of marginal powers & some quite decent ones (1-2 extra heals, Battle Awareness, Quarry, Sneak Attack, the ability to turn into a beast, a damage boost). You trade some combat efficiency from your class feats but those mentioned abilities pick some back up. You might not want to go this nuts so fast – you have 6-8 spare feats that could be fed in earlier.

2) Font of Knowledge. Bardic Knowledge does not stack with JoT so if you are planning to take the former training knowledge skills is worth +4, instead of +2 after JOT, so it is more tempting. If you are training skills you might as well use MC feats as you get some other benny.

3) Dilettante. A lot of the MC feats are tasty in their own right & the skill training is free, even if it is only +2 effectively with JoT. You might be attracted to damage boost most of the striker feats give to you, all of which stack. As a Valorous Bard you might not even have the INT for JoT so the MC feats are even more appealing. This also opens up class feats & paragon paths, one or more of which might be very good for you.

4) Weird MC thingy. It might be possible to cherry pick powers from pretty much any class you have the stats for then paragon MC. Some do not even really need a good attack stat – the wall types. I have not really explored this – there may be some cheesy horror combos but for myself I tend to like a fair number of the powers from any given class.

 

[Usumcasane]

Human Bard multiclassed into Cleric and Shaman. That nets you all the "knowledge" skills trained, gets you a little extra healing, and with the right armor (Warding Spirit), a bonus to AC vs. Opportunity Attacks. That's 2 feats. if you get Bardic Knowledge and Jack of All Trades, you have a +7 bonus to six skills and a +3 bonus to nine other skills. That is the most efficient use of feats to skill bonuses possible.

Obviously if you don't care about skills all that much, there are better feats to spend on. But an extra Healing Word each day is not bad. And putting a fair stat in Wisdom does help a lot of skills.