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Mana users & Divine channeling

Bonedagger

First Post
Sorry. It's a mess right now.


RUNNING PROJECT Newest Change: 8 Dec.
(Suggestion and critic are wellcome! Don't hold back)

I decided to write down how I feel the magic system should be. If you have any thoughts about it feel free to share.

Mana users & Divine channeling


Neither clerics nor wizards no longer have to memorize their spells. They can cast them as long as they can summon the energy required. Sorcerers don't exist anymore as a class. They to have been replaced by the new wizard.



Divine channeling (Former Divine spellcasters):

Priests pray for their gods intervention when they cast spells (Or pray sacret prayers as the cleric would call it) and the priest then funktion as a channeling divice for the gods will. In order to channel, the priest need to maintain a good contact with his god. That is maintained through rituals and daily praying.

He also need to know the specific patterns of the spell he need to channel. This knowledge has to be discovered by the channeleer/cleric himself. If he cannot adjust the spell his essens/soul will block it. This requires studies. In other words. A cleric need to learn how to cast his spells. Not even the gods know how a person have to adjust his spell. It is something uniq. The secret of the soul. Something the cleric only can discover by himself.

Teachings exist for commen "sacret prayers". They make it more easy for the cleric to reach his understanding. [In game therms the cleric need to learn his spells like a wizard but with one exception. Spellcraft is in this specific case tied to wisdom instead of intellingence. Not having a teaching makes a sacret prayer hard to understand. The cleric would need to create the spell in the same way that you invent new spells. The cleric this way gets a lot of the wizards penalties. I always found the clerics huge spell selection choice unreasonable but here it is also meant as a balance]

The cleric also need channeling energy. This is represented by channeling points (CP). The number for CP a cleric have is discovered by comparing his spellcasting ability in the PHB with the table A below. The PHB also allow spellcaster bonusspells. That is also the case with channeleers but the CP has been toned down in comparisment with the PHB. That have been done to compensate for the new flexibility of the spellcasters compared to the nonespellcasters. Table B shows how.



Mana users (Former arcane spellcasters):

Mana is your inner magic. The flame that burns in all of us. It burns in everything. The stuff that makes reallity be real.

You, as a wizard, have learned how to draw upon this energy and shape it. You don't truely understand it. You more feel your way. Therefore you need to resort to words, gestures and in some cases components in order to force the flame to shape/new shape. No one understands the flame as well as the gods. But not even they have full control over it. It is older than even them.

Like the cleric have CP the wizard have mana points (MP). To know your wizards manapool you need to look at table A and B below. Like with the cleric the wizard now gets less bonus to counter their new flexibility. They do this way work similar to a sorcerer just with notabel fewer spells per day but with a potential unlimited spellselection. The spellselection should reflect that spellbooks are now harder to come by. There are no need to carry them around anymore.


-------------

Table A

Table A

CP/MP pool & Spell cost

0 / (0/1)
1st / 1
2nd / 3
3rd / 5
4th / 7
5th / 9
6th / 11
7th / 13
8th / 15
9th / 17




-------------

Table B

Bonus CP/MP

Int/Wis (Bonus CP/MP)
9-10 (0)
11-12 (1)
13-14 (2)
15-16 (3)
17-18 (4)
19-20 (5)
etc.

I'm still uncertain about this one. Copying psionic might work


-------------



Spellcasting feats are used the same way as the sorcerer from the PHB do.

CP/MP are recovered when you sleep (Meditate in the case of elves). It requires 8 hours of rest for a complete recovery [Divide your total CP/MP pool by 8 to find out how many points you recover per hour of rest].

------------

Limits for spells:

Your spellcaster level will still limit the highest level spell you can cast similar to the corerules. So a 4th level wizard can not cast a 3rd level spell. It also count for metamagic.


Wizards are limited to knowing 200 spell levels of spells. The feat spellmastery can increase this number by 10 points every time it is taken.

Clerics limits on knowen prayers is 10 spell levels per level or 50. Whichever is higher.


---------------





Table C / The wizards progression:

Level / Basic Mana (Specialty bonus) / Max spell level

1st / 1 (1) / 1st
2nd / 2 (1) / 1st
3rd / 5 (3) / 2nd
4th / 8 (3) / 2nd
5th / 13 (5) / 3rd
6th / 18 (5) / 3rd
7th / 25 (7) / 4th
8th / 32 (7) / 4th
9th / 41 (9) / 5th
10th / 50 (9) / 5th
11th / 61 (11) / 6th
12th / 72 (11) / 6th
13th / 85 (13) / 7th
14th / 98 (13) / 7th
15th / 113 (15) / 8th
16th / 128 (15) / 8th
17th / 145 (17) / 9th
18th / 162 (17) / 9th
19th / 179 (17) / 9th
20th / 196 (17) / 9th


Note: Specialty bonus points can only be used for the specialists chosen school of specialization. (I know. But it had to be mentioned)

BTW. A 20th level wizard in the slotsystem would have 324 base points by direct translation. Int bonus would increase that rapidly.




-------------


New magical items:

Source Items. Source items are items that you can draw mana points from that can only be used to power a special school, or type, of spells. They can go a long way for setting the flavor of the campaign.

Eksamples:

-Staffs of Flames (School fire / +12 mana per day).

-The Jesters Coin (School Illusion / + 4 mana per round or - 4 mana per round. You need to flip the coin before you can draw from it (Standard action). It is fifty-fifty what effect you will get. But you will know since the face on the coin will reflect it. Smiling (Good) or evil grin (Bad). The coins effect is stuck on you for the rest of that encounter no matter if you lose the coin)


The secrets needed for making source items have been lost to time. So have many of the Source Items. Therefore they are considdered prestige items and have no set price.


-----------


Clerical Spontanious Casting (Being able to transform magic into healing or destruction) is gone.


[Added. 8 Dec.]


The spellcost and progression was changed after the princip in the psionic rules.

Important note: Since similar spelleffects in the psionic system are lower level and therefore have lower cost the sytem cannot be copied to wizard. It is a question about when certain powers become avalible.

It is close to being done now. :) (All I need is the time)

A more free number of spells knowen are kept for now.
 
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Randolpho

First Post
Why not use the 3e psionics system replacing with magic spells? Seems to me like it's an easier 'port than trying to fix all that was wrong with the Players Option stuff.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Randolpho said:
Why not use the 3e psionics system replacing with magic spells? Seems to me like it's an easier 'port than trying to fix all that was wrong with the Players Option stuff.

Uhm.. I don't really know how the psionic system of 3rd ed. works.

I therefore also don't know if a psionic variant would allow the same number of spells as the old slotsystem. That is an important factor here since I didn't want to mess to much with the precious gamebalance.

I also wanted to base the rules on a background that IMO had a more mystical feel. I have the feeling that spellcasters in the core rules really just are scietists. I believe that the only reasons psionics made it into the game in the first place was because something was lacking from spellcasting.

Well. If the rules are ok that's fine and it's not like they were difficult to make. I basically made them up as I wrote so I do considder this easy work.
 

Xylix

First Post
Generally you should be more consistant in your algorithms. This would be very important when choosing say a 16th level spell's cost, say an intensified meteor swarm.

It also keeps things more consistant. I would suggest something along these lines of :

Code:
level   Cost    Gap %
0th:   1          -- 
1st:   4          300%
2nd:  7          75%
3rd:  11         57%
5th:  16         45%
6th:  22         37%
7th:  29         32%
8th:  37         28%
9th:  46         24%


if you are wishing for a increasing cost gap for leveling, and lower gap % deteroration rate. In this case it starts at one and increases by +1,+2,+3,+4,+5 ... and persumes that the gap between 0th and 1st is actually a 2 spell level gap, not all that unrealistic.


However stiking with a 2x level -1 for cost, or better yet a 2x level +1 for cost is a good idea. The gap is very consistant and spell costs are easy to calculate. On the other hand the differance between 8th and 9th level spells is a mere 12% half of the other ystem.

*The 2x+1 takes care of 0th level, instead of having an odd implementation like psionics did.*

That also works fairly well. It does encourage always casting the higher level spell though, instead of a couple lower equivelent, especially when the spell packs more power.

As for spell choice, I would if I where you put some limit on it. You could implement two things, first Intelligence effects the number of 'spells' gained, and charisma the extra power points gained.

Max level could be removed, or implemented for the highest of the two statistics.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Xylix said:
Generally you should be more consistant in your algorithms. This would be very important when choosing say a 16th level spell's cost, say an intensified meteor swarm.

It also keeps things more consistant. I would suggest something along these lines of :

Code:
level   Cost    Gap %
0th:   1          -- 
1st:   4          300%
2nd:  7          75%
3rd:  11         57%
5th:  16         45%
6th:  22         37%
7th:  29         32%
8th:  37         28%
9th:  46         24%


if you are wishing for a increasing cost gap for leveling, and lower gap % deteroration rate. In this case it starts at one and increases by +1,+2,+3,+4,+5 ... and persumes that the gap between 0th and 1st is actually a 2 spell level gap, not all that unrealistic.


However stiking with a 2x level -1 for cost, or better yet a 2x level +1 for cost is a good idea. The gap is very consistant and spell costs are easy to calculate. On the other hand the differance between 8th and 9th level spells is a mere 12% half of the other ystem.

*The 2x+1 takes care of 0th level, instead of having an odd implementation like psionics did.*

That also works fairly well. It does encourage always casting the higher level spell though, instead of a couple lower equivelent, especially when the spell packs more power.

As for spell choice, I would if I where you put some limit on it. You could implement two things, first Intelligence effects the number of 'spells' gained, and charisma the extra power points gained.

Max level could be removed, or implemented for the highest of the two statistics.

I can see you missed 9th(4th) level in that code. So that last gap would be 22%.

Admitted. I just copied the code from Players Option 2nd ed. without much thought. I do like the idea of a more balanced costsysytem.

The cost of metamagic should not be an issue however since I'm trying to relate the cost the spellslot system. Casting a 16th level spell would have to be impossible unless you where epic since there still should be a max spelllevel as the wizard in the PHB have. (E.g. A 4th level caster can't handle 3rd level magic. It doesn't matter if it is a fireball or a metamagiced Magic Missile)


Of cause you need to be aware of the fact that many would prefere using only high level spells for the reason that the power level of spells as mentioned seem to increase eksponential. However don't forget that the spells avalible also plays a role in that question. I'm still not set on that one.


Your code looks good. It could work.


I do however not see any reason to limit the spellselection. IMO that should be handled through roleplaying.
 
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Xylix

First Post
Limiting through story has always been my perfered choice. ;)

However, a system can be nice in that it prevents accidental GM infavortism, high limits on spell selection accidently and thus flows in and out.

However, all around spontanious casting would not break the game. In fact it would make wizard duals more interesting.
 

Skarppsey

First Post
Sorceror Issues

Just thinking about the proposed mana point system for arcane casters and my question is this:

Wouldn't this invalidate any advantage that Sorcerors have over Wizards in 3e? A sorceror gets more castings of low level spells but sacrifices ability to learn spells from books/scrolls and has fewer spells overall. So would a sorceror be compensated with more mana points per level but be restricted from learning more spells, or what? I'm curious to see how you would deal with this.
 


Bonedagger

First Post
As Xylix said that class do not exist here.

This is a way to get rid of the fire and forget system.

I'm mixing the sorcerers spontaneous casting with an potential lower "spells per day" pool than the wizard (In the case of bonus spells for high stats). This way a wizard does not forget his spells. It's only a question if he has enough energy to cast them.


I'm not ruling out that you can have make a sorcerer variation to these rules but I don't see the point. If you really miss the extra firepower of the sorcerers "many spells per day" you can give the wizard an item (Maybe a staff) that increase his manapool. That's the way similar systems usually handle that problem. But in the spirit of D&D it could also be done through a prestige class or feats and then leave the staffs to the charges (Either way charged items would still be important).

--------------------------


BTW. Maybe it could be interesting to use a system similar to the limits on spellbooks for determine how many spells the wizard (And cleric) can know (So that you can know a certain number of spell levels (E.g. Fireball is 3 spell levels).

Maybe a set number so that it only should become an issue at the higher levels. That would also limit the number of highlevelspells a wizard would chose.

It would keep those very highlevel spells rare. It should however be possible to forget your spells so that you can learn new ones.


Added: 200 spell levels? Then the feat spellmastery could be taken to increase that pool with 10 points.

Added:

[More specific:

Wizards are limited to knowing 200 spell levels of spells. The feat spellmastery can increase this number by 10 points every time it is taken.

Clerics limits on knowen prayers is 10 spell levels per level or 50. Whichever is higher.]
 
Last edited:

Randolpho

First Post
Bonedagger said:
Uhm.. I don't really know how the psionic system of 3rd ed. works.

I therefore also don't know if a psionic variant would allow the same number of spells as the old slotsystem. That is an important factor here since I didn't want to mess to much with the precious gamebalance.

Heh... understandable. Which is, of course, *why* I suggested 3e Psionics. Because it fits right into the core rules with no ripples. Whatsoever. (IMO) I suggest you pick the book up, or read a friend's copy.

I also wanted to base the rules on a background that IMO had a more mystical feel. I have the feeling that spellcasters in the core rules really just are scietists. I believe that the only reasons psionics made it into the game in the first place was because something was lacking from spellcasting.

Well, there is that. Psionics still has a somewhat scientific feel to it. However, that doesn't *have* to be the case. All you need to do is adopt the *rules* system for casting spells from psionics and allow spells from the normal Wizard/Sorcerer lists rather than the Psionics list. It would be almost totally seamless. Plus, you could look into the psionic items the PsiHB offers and transform them from the new-age-ish crystaline crap to something a bit more... mystical. Things like crystal capacitors, mindfeeder weapons, psionic tatoos, etc.

Or, if you just want something that's different from the current magic system, but don't want pseudo-scientific sounding names (blame scientists for that) then just use Psionics rules unmodified and change the names for things to fit your campaign better. Call psionicists things like Mentalists, or Mystics, or the like.

Regardless, I suggest you start with the 3e Psi HB and mine it for ideas.

Or you could check out The Elements of Magic, which is a very popular alternative magic system these days. I haven't read it myself, but the basic premise is promising.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Randolpho said:


Heh... understandable. Which is, of course, *why* I suggested 3e Psionics. Because it fits right into the core rules with no ripples. Whatsoever. (IMO) I suggest you pick the book up, or read a friend's copy.



Well, there is that. Psionics still has a somewhat scientific feel to it. However, that doesn't *have* to be the case. All you need to do is adopt the *rules* system for casting spells from psionics and allow spells from the normal Wizard/Sorcerer lists rather than the Psionics list. It would be almost totally seamless. Plus, you could look into the psionic items the PsiHB offers and transform them from the new-age-ish crystaline crap to something a bit more... mystical. Things like crystal capacitors, mindfeeder weapons, psionic tatoos, etc.

Or, if you just want something that's different from the current magic system, but don't want pseudo-scientific sounding names (blame scientists for that) then just use Psionics rules unmodified and change the names for things to fit your campaign better. Call psionicists things like Mentalists, or Mystics, or the like.

Regardless, I suggest you start with the 3e Psi HB and mine it for ideas.

Or you could check out The Elements of Magic, which is a very popular alternative magic system these days. I haven't read it myself, but the basic premise is promising.

I have heard that EoM should be similar to the system that was used in the experimental version of Dragon Lance. Sounds interesting.

I actually don't mind that wizards might appear like a scientist. It was the part about that in the spellslot system magic wasn't something you had. It was just something you wore. (I'm already talking about it in the past. :))

I will probably take a look at the psionic rules at some time. It's just one of those things I haven't gotten around to.


But right now I'm serious considdering making this my permanent system. It gets better every time I look at it.

---------------------------------


Additions to the rules (Sort of) [Added above]:

Table C / The wizards progression:

Level / Basic Mana (Specialty bonus) / Max spell level

1st / 7 (4) / 1st
2nd / 12 (4) / 1st
3rd / 19 (11) / 2nd
4th / 30 (11) / 2nd
5th / 41 (22) / 3rd
6th / 59 (22) / 3rd
7th / 79 (38) / 4th
8th / 106 (38) / 4th
9th / 135 (60) / 5th
10th / 173 (60) / 5th
11th / 213 (89) / 6th
12th / 264 (89) / 6th
13th / 317 (126) / 7th
14th / 383 (126) / 7th
15th / 451 (172) / 8th
16th / 534 (172) / 8th
17th / 619 (228) / 9th
18th / 721 (228) / 9th
19th / 814 (228) / 9th
20th / 916 (228) / 9th

Note: Specialty bonus points can only be used for the specialists chosen school of specialization. (I know. But it had to be mentioned)


New magical items:

Source Items. Source items are items that you can draw mana points from that can only be used to power a special school, or type, of spells. They can go a long way for setting the flavor of the campaign.

Eksamples:

-Staffs of Flames (School fire / +12 mana per day).

-The Jesters Coin (School Illusion / + 4 mana per round or - 4 mana per round. You need to flip the coin before you can draw from it (Standard action). It is fifty-fifty what effect you will get. But you will know since the face on the coin will reflect it. Smiling (Good) or evil grin (Bad). The coins effect is stuck on you for the rest of that encounter no matter if you lose the coin)


The secrets needed for making source items have been lost to time. So have many of the Source Items. Therefore they are considdered prestige items and have no set price.


---

Clerical Spontanious Casting (Being able to transform magic into healing or destruction) is gone.
 
Last edited:

Randolpho

First Post
How about I boil down the Psion class into a Wizard / Cleric class from the rules on in the SRD. I made some minor changes to reflect the flavor of the Wizard and Cleric classes, as well as for wizard specialization. Also, due to poorly thought out coloration on ENWorld, you might need to hilite the tables, which I'm wrapping in code tags to preserve formatting.

Code:
[COLOR=white] 	Base
	Attack		Fort	Ref	Will			
Level	Bonus		Save	Save	Save	Special	  
-----	------		----	----	----	-------
1	+0		+0	+0	+2	(as Wizard or Cleric)
2	+1		+0	+0	+3		
3	+1		+1	+1	+3		  
4	+2		+1	+1	+4		  
5	+2		+1	+1	+4		  
6	+3		+2	+2	+5		  
7	+3		+2	+2	+5		  
8	+4		+2	+2	+6		  
9	+4		+3	+3	+6		
10	+5		+3	+3	+7		
11	+5		+3	+3	+7		
12	+6/+1		+4	+4	+8		
13	+6/+1		+4	+4	+8		
14	+7/+2		+4	+4	+9		
15	+7/+2		+5	+5	+9		
16	+8/+3		+5	+5	+10		
17	+8/+3		+5	+5	+10		
18	+9/+4		+6	+6	+11		
19	+9/+4		+6	+6	+11		
20	+10/+5		+6	+6	+12[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]Spell					------- Maximum Spells Known -------
Level	Pts/Day		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
-----	-------		-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
1	2		2+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
2	3		2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
3	4		2+d	2+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
4	7		3+d	2+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
5	10		3+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
6	15		4+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-	-	-
7	20		4+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-	-
8	27		5+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-	-
9	34		5+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-	-
10	43		6+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-	-
11	52		6+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-	-
12	63		7+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-	-
13	74		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-	-
14	87		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-	-
15	100		7+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-	-
16	115		7+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d	-
17	130		7+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	-
18	147		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d	d
19	164		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	1+d	1+d
20	183		7+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	4+d	3+d	3+d	2+d	2+d	1+d
Spell (or Channeling) Points/Day: How many points theWizard/Cleric has access to each day. The Wizard/Cleric
possesses a maximum number of points equal to the given number of points per day plus any bonus points per day.

“d”: Two extra spells from the Wizard's (only) specialization school. Non-specialized Wizards and Clerics gain only
one spell of any school. Note: This is a slight modification of the Psi rules to account for general practitioner Wizards
and Clerics. I don't feel it overly affects balance.[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]Table: Wizard/Cleric Bonus Spell Points
Int/Wis 
Ability			--------- Bonus Spell Points (by Wizard/Cleric Level) ---------
Score		1-2	3-4	5-6	7-8	9-10	11-12	13-14	15-16	17-18	19-20
-------		---	---	---	---	----	-----	-----	-----	-----	-----
  1-9			------ Can’t can't cast spells if Int/Wis this low ------
10-11		-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
12-13		1	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
14-15		1	3	-	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
16-17		1	3	5	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
18-19		1	3	5	7	-	-	-	-	-	-
20-21		3	3	5	7	9	-	-	-	-	-
22-23		3	5	5	7	9	11	-	-	-	-
24-25		3	5	7	7	9	11	13	-	-	-
26-27		3	5	7	9	9	11	13	15	-	-
28-29		5	5	7	9	11	11	13	15	17	-
30-31		5	7	7	9	11	13	13	15	17	19
32-33		5	7	9	9	11	13	15	15	17	19
34-35		5	7	9	11	11	13	15	17	17	19
36-37		7	7	9	11	13	13	15	17	19	19
38-39		7	9	9	11	13	15	15	17	19	21
40-41		7	9	11	11	13	15	17	17	19	21
etc. . . .[/color]

Code:
[COLOR=white]---Spell Cost---
Level	Cost
-----	----
0	0/1
1	1
2	3
3	5
4	7
5	9
6	11
7	13
8	15
9	17[/color]

Class Features

Spells: A Wizard or Cleric begins play knowing two 0-level spells (also called cantrips or orisons) and zero 1st-level powers, plus two extra spells in the Specialist Wizard's school or a single spell of any class for generic Wizards and Clerics. At each level, your Wizard or Cleric discovers one or more spells, as indicated on the tables above. Wizards and Clerics can pick powers from any school, but the “d” in each column represents two extra spells learned from the Specialist Wizard's primary school (or a single free spell for generic Wizards and Clerics). A “-” indicates no extra spells are known; a “d” or a number indicates that the Wizard/Cleric can choose one or more spells at the given level.

Spells learned must be common powers chosen from the Wizard/Cleric spell list. Specialist Wizards may not learn spells from their opposing schools. New spells researched but not on the list do not count toward maximum spells known; there is no limit on the total researched spells known except that Specialist Wizards may not research spells in their opposing schools.

Certain spells can be enhanced as they are cast, at the cost of additional spell points. (See Metamagic feats section)

Note: A Wizard/Cleric may choose to discover a lower-level spell in place of a higher-level spell normally granted by level advancement.

Spell Points: A Wizard/Cleric can cast a certain number of 1st-level and higher spells per day based on his available spell points. The number of available spell points per day is improved by his bonus spell points, if any.

0-Level Spells: Also called cantrips or orisons, 0-level spells have a special spell point cost. A Wizard/Cleric can manifest any cantrip or orison he knows for free a number of times per day equal to his level +3. After exhausting his daily allotment, the Wizard/Cleric must pay 1 power point per casting of a 0-level spell for the rest of the day.

Regaining Spell/Channeling points: A Wizard/Cleric regains all spell or channeling points after 8 hours of rest followed by 1 hour of study / meditation. If this is interrupted or circumstantially impossible, current spell points are retained, but no new spell points are regained.

Feats (Taken without modifications; replace the word "power" with the word "spell" and replace "manifest/manifesting" with "cast/casting". Replace "dorje" with "wand")

Delay Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A delayed power doesn’t activate until 1 to 5 rounds after you finish manifesting it. You determine the delay when manifesting the power, and it cannot be changed once set. The power activates just before your turn on the round you designate. Only area, personal, and touch powers may be affected by this feat. Any decisions you would make about the power (including attack rolls, designating targets, or determining or shaping an area) are decided when the power is manifested, while any effects resolved by those affected by the power (including saving throws) are decided when the power triggers. A delayed power may be negated normally during the delay, and can be detected normally in the area or on the target with powers that can detect psionic effects. A delayed power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +6.

Enlarge Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: An enlarged power has its range doubled. Powers whose ranges are not defined by distance do not have their ranges increased. Determine an enlarged power’s area or effect as if you were two manifester levels higher than you actually are. An enlarged power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2.

Extend Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: An extended power lasts twice as long as normal. Powers with a concentration, instantaneous, or permanent duration are not extended. An extended power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2.

Heighten Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A heightened power has a higher psionic power level than normal (up to 9th level). Unlike other meta_psionic feats, Heighten Power actually increases the effective level of the power that it modifies. All effects dependent on power level are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened power costs as many power points as a power of its effective level.

Hide Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: A psionic power can be manifested without one associated display characteristic chosen by you when you take the feat: auditory, material, mental, olfactory, or visual. The hidden power costs a number of power points equal to the standard cost +2.

Special: You can take this feat multiple times, each time choosing a different display characteristic to hide while manifesting a given power.

Master Dorje [Metamagic]

Benefit: You can manifest a power stored in a dorje without expending a charge. Instead, you pay for the imbedded power from your own power point reserve by spending a number of power points equal to its standard cost +2. When all the charges of a dorje are exhausted, the dorje becomes inert; thus, this feat no longer affects that individual dorje.

Maximize Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a maximized power are maximized. A maximized power deals maximum damage, cures the maximum number of hit points, affects the maximum number of targets, and so on, as appropriate. For example, a maximized whitefire deals 20 points of damage. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one you make when you manifest negate psionics) are not affected. Powers without random variables are not affected. The maximized power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +6.

Persistent Power [Metamagic]

Prerequisite: Extend Power.

Benefit: A persistent power has a duration of 24 hours. The persistent power must have a personal range or a fixed range; you can’t use this feat on a power with a variable range, or on a power with an instantaneous duration. Note that you must concentrate on some powers to use their effects (for example, detect psionics and detect thoughts); concentration on such a power is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. A persistent power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.

Quicken Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: Manifesting a quickened power is a free action. You may only manifest one quickened power per round. A power whose time to manifest is more than 1 full round cannot be quickened. The quickened power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.

Special: Possession of the Power Touch feat allows the use of that feat and one quickened power in the same round.

Twin Power [Metamagic]

Benefit: Manifesting a power altered by this feat causes the power to take effect twice on the target, as if you were simultaneously manifesting the same power two times on the same location or target. Any variables in the power (such as targets, shaping an area, and so on) apply to both of the resulting powers. The target suffers all the effects of both powers individually and receives a saving throw for each. In some cases, failure of both of the target’s saving throws results in redundant effects. A twinned power costs a number of power points equal to its standard cost +8.
 
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Randolpho

First Post
I suppose I should have mentioned that Clerical Specialty spells do not count towards the maximum spells known on the spells known table. Clerical Spontaneous healing is, naturally, redundant.

Note the differences in the systems: The spell costs have changed. This was carefully playtested in Psionics playtesting and, I think, is a good progression.

Also note that specialization does not grant you additional spell points, but additional spells known. This is a balance issue -- those additional spell points, while meager at lower levels, tip the scales overwhelmingly in favor of specialization against generalization at higher levels.

There are things I left out, like cool psionic items and feats that would compliment the magic system nicely... if you're intrigued by my post, feel free to look at the Psi stuff on http://opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html.
 
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Kyramus

First Post
check out Everquest d20. the magic system is mana based and is pretty well thought out.

only difference is that the classes in everquest are default 30 levels.

but you'll get an idea if you look at it.
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Randolpho said:
Note the differences in the systems: The spell costs have changed. This was carefully playtested in Psionics playtesting and, I think, is a good progression.


But that doesn't address the problem that the psionic powers may be weaker, stronger or more flexible than their arcane/divine counterparts.

I made a few observations skimming the Openforum dokument you provided a link to. (Thanks for the link BTW)

- 2nd level: Clairvoyance, Suggestion

- 3rd level: Mindlink, Charm Monster

- 4th level: Telekinesis, (Armor) +4 AC

I am aware that this will probably be limited through the choise of class or otherwise but it still raises questions when drawing parallels.


Also note that specialization does not grant you additional spell points, but additional spells known. This is a balance issue -- those additional spell points, while meager at lower levels, tip the scales overwhelmingly in favor of specialization against generalization at higher levels.


I felt the same way when I first looked at it. But the lack of one or more schools can often be a hard blow when reallity (In-game that is) strikes the wizard....

...Then again. It does allow for 4 extra 9th level spells at 17th level and up. The speciality mana bonus could probably be reduced. But it was also the point that the limited spellselection should balance this. Never said my system was complete. :)

The option of increasing the spellpool instead of the mana pool does sound like it has potential. But I think I will divide the bonus pool by 2 rounding down for now. I will have to look into the psionic rules first to see what they gain from their limited spellchoise.


There are things I left out, like cool psionic items and feats that would compliment the magic system nicely... if you're intrigued by my post, feel free to look at the Psi stuff on http://opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html.


If nothing else it is inspiration.

Even though it started as a sidenote I have become hooked on completing this system... A little at the time. :)
 

Bonedagger

First Post
Kyramus said:
check out Everquest d20. the magic system is mana based and is pretty well thought out.

only difference is that the classes in everquest are default 30 levels.

but you'll get an idea if you look at it.


Hmm... I didn't know there was a d20 version of Everquest. Thanks for the hint.
 


Randolpho

First Post
Bonedagger said:
But that doesn't address the problem that the psionic powers may be weaker, stronger or more flexible than their arcane/divine counterparts.

Ah, but it does! Psionics powers *are* weaker than spells in general per level, but that is because the point-cast system is more flexible. It's a bance-issue tradeoff. However, since you're pretty much unbalancing the spell-casting classes by going to a mana-point system, I don't think it matters. The power-points granted to a psionicst allow him to cast (manifest, sorry ;)) as many spells (powers) as a wizard can.

(Thanks for the link BTW)
Anytime.

I felt the same way when I first looked at it. But the lack of one or more schools can often be a hard blow when reallity (In-game that is) strikes the wizard....

Indeed, that's a drawback. In the new system, Wizards are limited in the number of spells they can know. Specialists are also limited; they can know less *types* of spells, but (barring research) they can know *more* spells. This makes a specialist both more flexible and less flexible at the same time. Balance! :)

...Then again. It does allow for 4 extra 9th level spells at 17th level and up. The speciality mana bonus could probably be reduced. But it was also the point that the limited spellselection should balance this. Never said my system was complete. :)

I say eliminate extra spells cast and instead offer extra spells known. This increases flexibility without overpowering.

Even though it started as a sidenote I have become hooked on completing this system... A little at the time. :)

I'd like to see it a finished product. I suggested psionics because I enjoy the rules for playing a psionicst; they sort of flow well. Furthermore they've been playtesting balanced. A wizard based on those rules would a fun play, IMO.
 

Randolpho

First Post
BTW, I hope you don't think I'm being overly-critical. I rather like the idea of separating spell points into two (or even three!) separate pools based on the type of magic being used. This helps solve multi-classing issues. But what about multi-classing between two spell-casters of the same type (like Duirds and Clerics or Bards and Wizards)? In the PsiHB, it is recommended that the power points be pooled, but that which spells are known be tracked according to which class they are known by, as there are level-dependent effects in the individual spells.

I suggest you keep that suggestion as well and make all the spell-casting classes follow the same basic rules. So a level 1/3 Wizard/Bard might have (using my suggested psi-like spell points) 3 Mana points (2 from 1st level Wizard and an extrapolated 1 from 2nd level Bard) + stat bonuses (Int and Cha), and know 3 0-level Wizard spells, 4 0-level Bard spells, 1 1st-level Wizard spell, and 2 1st-level Bard spells.

Hmm... if you don't end up using the Psi-rules as I suggested I just may have to make a competing system. :)
 

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