Level Up (A5E) Manuevers (1st level) - Winners and Losers

[tetrasodium]

Analysis of Dangerous Strikes should also consider secondary benefits from the crit. In particular, the berserker's Furious Critical feature makes this tempting. Now you're not just getting a tiny bit of extra damage (on average), but an extra chance at a fear effect, knockback, knockdown (advantage), or just flat out extra attacks which themselves can trigger extra attacks. (Or various other effects.)

I've had to do my own rethink of maneuvers for my barbarian -> berserker conversion, because my preferred weapon (glaive) is not a heavy weapon anymore. That immediately removes the majority of the Adamant Mountain school.

If you look through the 1st degree maneuvers, there's actually almost nothing available as an action to improve your damage output. The only option I see from a quick scan is the 2 point Cleaving Swing from Adamant Mountain, which requires a heavy weapon.

The Razor's Edge school seems focused on crit fishing, and it is not an unreasonable focus if you have options to capitalize on crits for more than just basic damage. Unfortunately I haven't seen much other than berserker that really takes advantage of that. Still, I could see a couple different concepts that would work when focused in that way, especially if you get extra BA and reaction attacks (eg: Polearm Savant, dual wielding, various reaction combat maneuvers, etc).

Of course my own character has leveled past the point where Dangerous Strikes would be useful. It would be largely supplanted by Perfect Edge Stance, if I went for the Razor's Edge school. I would probably take maneuvers with a different focus at low level, but I wouldn't consider it a bad option.

It also stacks with all sorts of crit range extending abilities, stances, & weapon enhancements (ie keen or whatever). I wouldn't be surprised if there is a spell that mixes with it too

 

[Stalker0]

Analysis of Dangerous Strikes should also consider secondary benefits from the crit. In particular, the berserker's Furious Critical feature makes this tempting.

Unfortunately, berserkers don't get access to that school. Otherwise, yes I would absolutely agree this could be a good berserker maneuver. I can't think of any other crit riders that makes this tempting and from a class that gets this maneuver (heralds seem like an idea but again don't get it).

 

[Stalker0]

It also stacks with all sorts of crit range extending abilities, stances, & weapon enhancements (ie keen or whatever). I wouldn't be surprised if there is a spell that mixes with it too

This unfortunately does not help the "effective damage boost". With normal rolls, its going to 5% no matter where the original crit range was at, and so my numbers above stand as they are.

For advantage rolls (the one place where I think you could argue DS has some merit), the effect actually WEAKENS with higher crit threat.

Moving from 20 (advantage) to 19 (advantage) is a 9.25% increase to a crit. From from 19 to 18 is a 8.75% improvement, etc. Actually that reminds, me I think I may have given DS a bit too much damage above, I'll need to adjust (I think I gave them a +9.75% crit instead of a +.9.25%).

 

[Stalker0]

Part of my issue with many damaging maneuvers is probably in comparison with battle master maneuvers (which granted is a bit apples and oranges).

Battlemaster manuevers provide +4.5 (5.5 at 10th) damage AND a control effect....and generally wait until you hit before you have to spend the die. This is a major difference, meaning that battlemasters are only using their die when they will actually get benefit. Conversely, most LU maneuvers require investment ahead of time, leading to many situations where exertion is "wasted".

Now for conditions this can still be okay, conditions can be very powerful and have a major impact on a battle, so taking some exertion risk with them can be ok if the payoff is worth it. In comparison, adding in just a bit more damage is really not that impactful.

 

[tetrasodium]

This unfortunately does not help the "effective damage boost". With normal rolls, its going to 5% no matter where the original crit range was at, and so my numbers above stand as they are.

For advantage rolls (the one place where I think you could argue DS has some merit), the effect actually WEAKENS with higher crit threat.

Moving from 20 (advantage) to 19 (advantage) is a 9.25% increase to a crit. From from 19 to 18 is a 8.75% improvement, etc. Actually that reminds, me I think I may have given DS a bit too much damage above, I'll need to adjust (I think I gave them a +9.75% crit instead of a +.9.25%).

You are looking at it the wrong way. It's not a 5% bonus chance, it's one step in the chain towards a 20% crit chance. There are soo many abilities that work as part of that goal.

 

[Kinematics]

Unfortunately, berserkers don't get access to that school.

Ah, had forgotten about that. Though there's always the Martial Style feat to get around that, I kinda feel like that's a feat I'd wait til around level 12 to pick up, so as to benefit from the higher tier maneuvers you can choose, and greater flexibility to use more higher-tier maneuvers. So it wouldn't end up being a low-level choice anyway.

 

[Stalker0]

You are looking at it the wrong way. It's not a 5% bonus chance, it's one step in the chain towards a 20% crit chance. There are soo many abilities that work as part of that goal.

No it’s a 20% crit chance on a small handful of checks a round. As a stance the small amount of damage would be worth it because it’s all the time, so the extra damage adds up. But right now it’s just now a major damage booster.

 

[tetrasodium]

No it’s a 20% crit chance on a small handful of checks a round. As a stance the small amount of damage would be worth it because it’s all the time, so the extra damage adds up. But right now it’s just now a major damage booster.

perfect fist, champion of the arena, center of mass, improved critical, vicious weapons, tactical support, strike the cracks stance, perfect edge stance. 17-20 isn't bad for a crit fishing build, if that's a build with only one attack per round it doesn't matter if it's only used when for example an ally is using a the help action & crossing their fingers for the tactical support feat to go off for yet another jump.
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Yes there are ways to get it to a semipassive 17-20, but the surgical combatant feat grants You gain proficiency with the Dangerous Strikes maneuver and do not have to spend exertion to activate it." along with a few other benefits making this one of the ways to get 17-20 passively.

 

[niklinna]

I've put your ratings into my spreadsheet of maneuvers. Do let me know if you'd rather they not be there.

 

[Doskious]

I cannot disagree with the analysis as regards Wounding Strike.

I'm contemplating a different change to the ability than the one mentioned above:

So I just did my houserules for my first LU game, and the one manuever I did change was wounding strike:

Wounding Strike: Cost one exertion, and you immediately do 1d4 damage along with the normal effects.

At that point, it's still not an amazing maneuver, but it at least has a chance of being ok.

The change I'm considering is this:

Wounding Strike: As stated, but with the following addition:
- If the creature elects to attempt the Con save, it takes equivalent damage to the ongoing damage it would take from this ability at the end of its turn; if it elects to attempt the Con save and fails, the DC to remove the ongoing damage increases by 1. The target of this ability is not required to attempt a Con save to end the effect.

I feel like this accomplishes almost the same net effect in terms of guaranteed damage as Stalker0's houserule, and introduces some more interesting dynamics to the equation. Creatures with high Con saves are still unlikely to suffer significant damage from the ability (and that feels appropriate, and like it's fodder for some interesting narrative options after the combat), but it becomes significantly more dangerous against creatures with Con saves that are not on par with the DC (or simply unlucky creatures -- it's a save, there's a 5% chance that anyone will fail) who elect not to (or cannot) wait for proper medical aid, as attempting and failing the Con save means the creature will take 2d4 damage that round, or will take 1d4 damage and burn an action or an ally's action trying to deal with the wound. (Unless healing magic or regeneration renders it a moot point, and I feel like regeneration in particular ought to obviate this damage -- at that point, the character using Wounding Strike has brought a lasso to an artillery fight. As for healing magic, any time you can make the enemy react to you is generally a good thing for you.)

Thoughts?