Manyshot and Frost Bow

[Vegepygmy]

Besides, I would find odd if you could increase the magical power of your bow by using a feat that is neither magical nor related specifically to that bow

What about Rapid Shot? It's a feat that is neither magical nor related specifically to "that bow," so by your logic it shouldn't work, either.

You seem pretty committed to your interpretation, so I don't hold out much hope of changing your mind, but...you're wrong, dude. Just plain wrong.

The key wording is: "Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special)."

Frost-enhanced arrows normally deal +1d6 cold damage on a hit, so both arrows deal their normal damage. The only exception is the one called out under the Special entry: precision-based damage and critical hit damage is applied only once. Everything else applies once per arrow.

 

[Umklapp]

How do you come to this conclusion? If each arrow counts as a different damaging force, how do you jutify something doing its bonus damage from an enhancement like Frost or Flaming only once for the volley?

If Manyshot is considered a single shot because of its one attack roll, no archer would bother with damage boosting enchantments. There goes a major source of damage, making it harder for the entire party.

The problem arises for flaming/frost/etc bows/crossbows used with Manyshot only. If you put for example damage boosting enchantments on ammunitions they apply to any single arrow regardless of Manyshot IMO. However, according to the DMG, bows with frost/flaming/etc provide their magic bonus (1d6) on a successful hit. I consider that the *bow* hits every time a successful attack roll is made with it regardless of the number of arrows fired. Others (the majority as it seems) thinks differently, assuming that if you are firing many arrows with Manyshot then your are scoring as many successful hits with the bow, thus justifing the +1d6 on each arrow. However I still have to find an argument convincing enough to change my mind.

 

[Vegepygmy]

I consider that the *bow* hits every time a successful attack roll is made with it regardless of the number of arrows fired. Others (the majority as it seems) thinks differently, assuming that if you are firing many arrows with Manyshot then your are scoring as many successful hits with the bow, thus justifing the +1d6 on each arrow.

No, the majority think that you don't hit with the bow at all; you hit with the arrows fired from the bow. And this interpretation is supported by the DMG (page 221):

Magic Ammunition and Breakage: When a magic arrow, crossbow bolt, or sling bullet misses its target, there is a 50% chance it breaks or otherwise is rendered useless. A magic arrow, bolt, or bullet that hits is destroyed.

 

[Jhaelen]

Others (the majority as it seems) thinks differently, assuming that if you are firing many arrows with Manyshot then your are scoring as many successful hits with the bow, thus justifing the +1d6 on each arrow. However I still have to find an argument convincing enough to change my mind.

What evidence do you have that an attack roll equals a hit? What about an attack that doesn't require you to make an attack roll to hit? Would that be zero hits to you?
How about feats/spells that allow you to roll 2d20 for every attack roll? Assuming both dice indicate a hit, would you apply the damage bonus from the magic bow twice?

Imho, it makes zero sense to not apply the bonus damage on every arrow that hits. The only line of reasoning I'd accept would be if you could prove that the damage bonus represents precision-based damage.

Edit: there's been a question about the interaction between Manyshot and Deflect Arrows here. But obviously you won't agree with the answer

 

[Umklapp]

What about Rapid Shot? It's a feat that is neither magical nor related specifically to "that bow," so by your logic it shouldn't work, either.

Good point. Admittedly my argument is not very compelling.

You seem pretty committed to your interpretation, so I don't hold out much hope of changing your mind, but...you're wrong, dude. Just plain wrong.

The key wording is: "Both arrows use the same attack roll (with a -4 penalty) to determine success and deal damage normally (but see Special)."

Frost-enhanced arrows normally deal +1d6 cold damage on a hit, so both arrows deal their normal damage. The only exception is the one called out under the Special entry: precision-based damage and critical hit damage is applied only once. Everything else applies once per arrow.

I am not committed to any particular interpretation but the argument "you're wrong" is hardly convincing However you indeed triggered a different point of view. So far I assumed that the energy enhancement originated from the bow and then it was bestowed to the ammunitions. Thence the problems on how much the enhancement is and what triggers it, trying to apply the ability description to the bow.
However, reading again the weapon ability description and comparing also with the flame arrow spell, it now seems to me that the bow bestows the ability rather than the enhancement to the ammunitions (this was suggested by your "Frost-enhanced arrows"), although the DMG text "bestow the energy upon their ammunitions" is not overly clear. Now the ability description applies to the arrows so that they behave as they were enchanted with a spell like flame arrow. In this case, I agree that +1d6 is a "normal" damage, as you wrote, and applies to each arrow.

As you can see, I can change my mind

 

[Umklapp]

What evidence do you have that an attack roll equals a hit? What about an attack that doesn't require you to make an attack roll to hit? Would that be zero hits to you?
How about feats/spells that allow you to roll 2d20 for every attack roll? Assuming both dice indicate a hit, would you apply the damage bonus from the magic bow twice?

The only definition of "successful hit" I can think of is a successful attack roll (which can be automatic or have double chances or any other exception I may want to consider). You are free to provide a better definition.

Edit: there's been a question about the interaction between Manyshot and Deflect Arrows here. But obviously you won't agree with the answer

Of course not I would never allow any character to deflect the "first" arrow. This is metagaming! Yet I am now ready to apply the frost enhancement to each arrow fired using Manyshot (see my previous post if you are curious to see why) so the issue is over.

 

[Vegepygmy]

Vegepygymy for the win!

(You're welcome, elleon.)

 

[akbearfoot]

oops, nevermind

 

[elleon]

Vegepygymy for the win!

(You're welcome, elleon.)

My (and my ranger's) gratitude to all who contributed to the thread.

And thanks to my beloved GM, Umklapp, for the always challenging debates

elleon