Manyshot question

[Darklone]

First. Casting a spell is it's own standard action. If this spell involves a ranged touch attack that attack is part of the casting a spell action.

Second. Shot on the run does not say you have to use this or that action. It says 'when you use the attack action with a ranged weapon'.

You're right. Using Manyshot is it's own standard action as well. That's why.
Shilsen, Hyp? Where's the Sage quote and Andy Collins comments about Manyshot and Shot on the Run?

 

[Darklone]

have a look ...

 

[AGGEMAM]

The reason why Manyshot is not a special standard action of it's own as it appears now in the book is that it lacks AoO information. Every single action has AoO information, and although one might think this is unimportant to Manyshot it is exactly what either makes it a special standard action, or a standard action that uses the normal attack action rules.

It's a pivitual point here.

It would have been so much easier if WotC learned to write consistant rules. They only needed to include 'Using Manyshot provokes (or does not provoke) an AoO.

 

[Darklone]

Uh? I think they don't have to... any ranged attack provokes an AoO, Manyshot includes a ranged attack ... such as e.g. a full attack action using Rapid Shot ... that provokes several AoOs... or did I understand you wrong?

 

[AGGEMAM]

Uh? I think they don't have to... any ranged attack provokes an AoO, Manyshot includes a ranged attack ... such as e.g. a full attack action using Rapid Shot ... that provokes several AoOs... or did I understand you wrong?

Well, Manyshot actually never says it's a ranged attack. It says you fire two arrows and you used an attack roll. That's not exactly the same.

You do see my point, right?

 

[Darklone]

Right, at least in the SRD it's bad written... No idea if it's better in the books...

Manyshot is bad in many regards... some people already complained that it's only useable with bows... due to the mention of arrows.

I think we can safely assume that shooting arrows at someone is considered a ranged attack

 

[AGGEMAM]

I think we can safely assume that shooting arrows at someone is considered a ranged attack

Rigth. But bites on it's own tail. If they mean that shooting arrows (in the Manyshot feat) is considered a ranged attack, then it's no longer a special attack on it's own.

All they had to do is state that using Manyshot provokes an AoO. Then there would be nothing to discuss because it would then have fulfilled all the requirements detailing a special standard action.

 

[Will]

I think the problem is:

Attack is both a generic thing (I attack somebody), and a defined term.

An Attack Action is a standard action that involves attacking someone.

Use of Manyshot is a standard action that involves attacking someone. But Manyshot is not an Attack Action.

Why? Well, there is some room for ambiguity, but it boils down to 'just because two things describe the same event, doesn't mean they are the same.' That is, an Attack Action is not _any_ action that involves attacking someone. There are Full Attack Actions, after all, and special actions that feats describe.

But this gets murky. Is _any_ feat that attacks with a full action considered a Full Attack Action? By what we call around here a 'German' reading of the rules, not unless it states so.

Shot on the Run says 'when using the attack action with a ranged weapon.' Note it says '-the- attack action'. if it said 'an attack action', there would be at least some indication that they are generally referring to any attack. Though they would then leave it open to using full attack (which is _an_ attack action) and so forth.

I'm contemplating house ruling Manyshot to be used with Shot on the Run, for what it's worth. I just don't think the rules as written support it.

In addition, Manyshot clearly only applies to arrows. Perhaps a balance issue, but it's pretty straightforward.

 

[shilsen]

Shilsen, Hyp? Where's the Sage quote and Andy Collins comments about Manyshot and Shot on the Run?

See - we knew you could do it yourself

 

[Darklone]

Did I?

Ah well... Manyshot with shuriken at least should be possible (by thousands of examples in cheap 60s kung fu movies)... but now we have a prestigeclass to fix that... argh.