Manyshot question

[CrimsonTemplar]

The Official Position

Official D&D 3.5 FAQ

On page 7 (second column, towards the bottom) of the FAQ it states that you may not use the Manyshot and Shot on the Run feats together.

I happen to agree with the Sage this time.

Hong, where's my hat?

 

[jgsugden]

Official D&D 3.5 FAQ

On page 7 (second column, towards the bottom) of the FAQ it states that you may not use the Manyshot and Shot on the Run feats together.

I happen to agree with the Sage this time.

Hong, where's my hat?

Even I agree with the Sage on this one.

An attack action and a manyshot action are two different standard actions. For rules purposes, they are as different as casting a spell and attacking with a weapon.

Shot on the Run works with an attack action, but does not work with other standard actions. Intuitively, to many many people, it seems like it should, but by the rules it does not.

Frustrated by this situation, I added a home brew feat to my game. The feat is very useful for archers, spellcasters and polearm wielding PCs. It is a cross between Spring Attack and Flyby Attack:

Mobile Action [general] [fighter bonus: yes]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge

Description: You're well versed at doing things on the move.

Benefit: As a full round action, you may make a single move action. At any point during this move action, you may perform a standard action (such as cast a spell, use the manyshot feat or attack with a melee weapon using the standard attack action). This feat does not protect you from attacks of opportunity (ie; if your movement provokes an AoO, you are subject to that AoO).

You must declare the use of this feat before you begin to move. You must also specify what your entire action set will be. If this intended action becomes impossible during performance of the action, the rest of the action is lost. (Example: Bob declares the use of the Mobile Action feat and specifies that he will step 15' to exit his cover, use the manyshot feat to fire his bow at a specific enemy spellcaster and then continue moving 15' more to get behind other cover. The enemy spellcaster has a readied action to teleport far away if Bob leaves his cover. When Bob leaves his cover, the enemy spellcaster's readied action takes effect and he teleports away. Bob continues to move until he has gone the 15' he specified. The next portion of the feat (the manyshot versus the spellcaster) is now impossible, so Bob's action ends. He does not continue on to cover like he had planned.

 

[Artoomis]

Your feat is too restrictive and has too high a requirement, I think. Keep in mind that fly-by attack has no prerequisites at all except a fly speed.

I suggest keeping the Dex 13, getting rid of dodge, and eliminating the restrictions. To restate:

MOBILE ACTION [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Dex 13. Land movement rate.
Benefit: When moving on the ground, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a mobile action.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.

This is now an exact parallel to "Flyby Attack" except for the Dex requirement. I don't see why it should be stricter.

I also suggest it be allowed to substitute for "Mobility" in the Spring Attack chain - but now I'm going way overboard into House Rules.

Even I agree with the Sage on this one.

An attack action and a manyshot action are two different standard actions. For rules purposes, they are as different as casting a spell and attacking with a weapon.

Shot on the Run works with an attack action, but does not work with other standard actions. Intuitively, to many many people, it seems like it should, but by the rules it does not.

Frustrated by this situation, I added a home brew feat to my game. The feat is very useful for archers, spellcasters and polearm wielding PCs. It is a cross between Spring Attack and Flyby Attack:

Mobile Action [general] [fighter bonus: yes]

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Dodge

Description: You're well versed at doing things on the move.

Benefit: As a full round action, you may make a single move action. At any point during this move action, you may perform a standard action (such as cast a spell, use the manyshot feat or attack with a melee weapon using the standard attack action). This feat does not protect you from attacks of opportunity (ie; if your movement provokes an AoO, you are subject to that AoO).

You must declare the use of this feat before you begin to move. You must also specify what your entire action set will be. If this intended action becomes impossible during performance of the action, the rest of the action is lost. (Example: Bob declares the use of the Mobile Action feat and specifies that he will step 15' to exit his cover, use the manyshot feat to fire his bow at a specific enemy spellcaster and then continue moving 15' more to get behind other cover. The enemy spellcaster has a readied action to teleport far away if Bob leaves his cover. When Bob leaves his cover, the enemy spellcaster's readied action takes effect and he teleports away. Bob continues to move until he has gone the 15' he specified. The next portion of the feat (the manyshot versus the spellcaster) is now impossible, so Bob's action ends. He does not continue on to cover like he had planned.

 

[billd91]

I think the problem is:

Attack is both a generic thing (I attack somebody), and a defined term.

An Attack Action is a standard action that involves attacking someone.

Use of Manyshot is a standard action that involves attacking someone. But Manyshot is not an Attack Action.

Why? Well, there is some room for ambiguity, but it boils down to 'just because two things describe the same event, doesn't mean they are the same.' That is, an Attack Action is not _any_ action that involves attacking someone. There are Full Attack Actions, after all, and special actions that feats describe.

But this gets murky. Is _any_ feat that attacks with a full action considered a Full Attack Action? By what we call around here a 'German' reading of the rules, not unless it states so.

Shot on the Run says 'when using the attack action with a ranged weapon.' Note it says '-the- attack action'. if it said 'an attack action', there would be at least some indication that they are generally referring to any attack. Though they would then leave it open to using full attack (which is _an_ attack action) and so forth.

I'm contemplating house ruling Manyshot to be used with Shot on the Run, for what it's worth. I just don't think the rules as written support it.

In addition, Manyshot clearly only applies to arrows. Perhaps a balance issue, but it's pretty straightforward.

Judging from the rules as written, it's quite possible to rule either way. They are sufficiently ambiguous that nobody could really definitively say which was intended without the clarification of the designers.
Manyshot says standard action, true. But a single attack made during a round in which you move is also a standard action. Use of the term standard action, however, does exclude it from being part of a full attack.
Shot on the Run says you use an attack action while taking your movement before and after the shot. The fact that you're moving more than 5 feet also precludes using this as a full attack option as "attack action" prevents it from being used in conjunction with spell casting.
Note that Manyshot, though it says standard action, isn't exactly spell use and is clearly some form of attack action since you are definitely making an attack. So there's nothing there that clearly says this particular version of a standard action that is an attack action can't be the same as the attack action in shot on the run which also happens to be a standard action. You see how silly it gets?
So, what do the rules mean? They mean what the designers have clarified them to mean. Personally, I don't agree and don't really see any serious flaw in using Manyshot with Shot on the Run and plan on houseruling accordingly. Both have the net effect of allowing a character to fire multiple arrows off one draw of the bow string and make a move action. Using Shot on the Run just allows you to break up your movement, which is keeping in with the spirit of Shot on the Run if you're firing a single arrow. It just means that the shot you take as you head from cover to more cover is a heavier payload.

 

[jgsugden]

Your feat is too restrictive and has too high a requirement, I think. Keep in mind that fly-by attack has no prerequisites at all except a fly speed.

I suggest keeping the Dex 13, getting rid of dodge, and eliminating the restrictions.

I strongly disagree.

Flyby attack requires a fly speed, which is a pretty hefty requirement. A feat is a lot easier to gain than a fly speed. Further, it should not be the bottom of a feat chain or have no real prereqs. It is too useful of an addition to the abilities of a PC. Having a feat prerequisite requires you to have a focus on this type of activity before you can just casually pick up the ability to do things while moving.

Keep in mind that I use this feat. I have play tested it. It is fine as written. The restrictions are necessary to keep it from being a 'no brainer' in many situations. You need to figure out when it is worth using this feat and when it is better to just use a move action and a standard action. Further, the restrictions help avoid a few hundred rules questions that arose when I introduced this feat. They are a product of play testing.

 

[Korak]

I strongly disagree.

Flyby attack requires a fly speed, which is a pretty hefty requirement. A feat is a lot easier to gain than a fly speed. Further, it should not be the bottom of a feat chain or have no real prereqs. It is too useful of an addition to the abilities of a PC. Having a feat prerequisite requires you to have a focus on this type of activity before you can just casually pick up the ability to do things while moving.

Keep in mind that I use this feat. I have play tested it. It is fine as written. The restrictions are necessary to keep it from being a 'no brainer' in many situations. You need to figure out when it is worth using this feat and when it is better to just use a move action and a standard action. Further, the restrictions help avoid a few hundred rules questions that arose when I introduced this feat. They are a product of play testing.

Indeed. Also, bear in mind that since Fly-By attack concerns flying movement, it is exceedingly rare for a PC to have. Even when present, the chances of a creature with the feat being able to begin and end its movement behind cover are very, very low. With Mobile Action, many PCs can qualify, and can often begin and end their round out of sight of the enemy while still causing damage. Mobile action definitely needs at least moderate prerequisites to be balanced against its utility.