Marketing criticisms miss the point

[Agamon]

An old joke I once heard, done by a comedian claiming to own the axe that George Washington used to cut down the famous cherry tree:

"This here is the axe that George Washington used to chop down that cherry tree with. *pause* Of course I had to replace the handle. *pause* And I had to replace the head after it got rusty. *pause* BUT it occupies the same SPACE as the original axe."

That is 4E right there. After having replaced the entire system, it occupies the same space as D&D. But that doesn't make it D&D

Then 3.5 isn't D&D. Neither is 3.0. Or 2e. Or 1e. Or RC. Or B/E/C/X/I.

Wow, Diaglo was right all along.

 

[Scott_Rouse]

9 pages on marketing! Awesome.

The Gnome Druid requests you stop talking about chopping trees down.

Thanks,

Spelljammer

 

[Agamon]

Ugh, that was a painful blog post.

The author is a sharp guy who drank the Internet Kool Aid. I know its impossible for most forum people to imagine, but the vast majority of gamers have NEVER heard of ENworld, RPG.net or WebRPG or any other online game site. They know Amazon and eBay.

We just did 4e demos with hundreds of people at the last LA convention and whenever we said anything about the ENworld 4e Lite we got blank stares from 90% of the people. These are hardcore RPG players who pay money to play D&D at cons and they had no freaking idea what we were talking about. Some had no idea 4e was coming out this year.

39% of any online gaming survey is useless - doubly so on a forum that has been dedicated to 3e. I fully admit that I get caught up in the Internet Kool Aid as well. I actually thought Ron Paul had a chance so its an easy thing to believe that Teh Intarweb = Teh Real Life when there is no notable correlation.

I've been saying this for a long time. Out of the 30+ gamers I know, I'm the only frequenter of this site. A good 10 or so know of it but don't come here often if at all. I'm the one that told my FLGS owner about 3e, 3.5e and 4e. And the Wizards MB isn't much different. We MB folks seem numerous, but we are a very small niche in a small niche hobby. Some people don't get that, to the point that if a dozen people agree with them in a thread, a huge majority of the population must as well...

 

[Hussar]

9 pages on marketing! Awesome.

The Gnome Druid requests you stop talking about chopping trees down.

Thanks,

Spelljammer

Heh. We're here all weekend. Don't forget to tip your waiter.

But, in the interests of actually generating a somewhat more informed discussion, could you respond to some of the criticisms made here? Are they reasonable criticisms or not? And, why or why not?

 

[Scott_Rouse]

Heh. We're here all weekend. Don't forget to tip your waiter.

But, in the interests of actually generating a somewhat more informed discussion, could you respond to some of the criticisms made here? Are they reasonable criticisms or not? And, why or why not?

Seriously? Yes I'll answer some stuff.

But not tonight my mood is foul so I am going drinking with a Half-Orc Barbarian buddy.

 

[Mercurius]

Correct on the first part.

Your opinion on the second part unless your referring to the fact that 4e books had D&D in big letters printed on them. If that is the case, then if I print and release a chinese cookbook and put Dungeons and Dragons as the cover, that makes it D&D.... right? Because it is right there on the cover and therefore must be a fact.

4e is D&D is subjective and based on the opinions of the owner of the book and how he defines what is D&D for him.

If you took Rifts and slapped a D&D cover on it doesn't make it D&D despite what that 'fact' implies.

Um, no. The key part being that WotC owns the rights to D&D, so what they say is D&D IS D&D. Sure, you and your buddies can play whatever you want and call it whatever you want, but in the larger scheme of things D&D is what WotC says it is. Sorry, but that's how it works.

Furthermore, by your logic--as someone pointed out--all editions of D&D other than OD&D are not D&D, or only "subjectively D&D."

But again, play what you want, call it what you want. Don't let anyone stop you from YOUR fun.

 

[Banshee16]

1. Insert obligatory comments about validity of EN World polls.
2. Then mention: "Let's pretend we're drunk and assume those numbers are valid. The question becomes - 'Did WotC's marketing strategy with their new game bring in a greater number of gamers than those 39% that are not going 4E?'"
3. If Yes, then: "We're not the next New Coke."
4. If No, then: "We're money-grubbing suits, and we're stupid."



The title on the books say otherwise. I suspect those will garner more attention than the Word of Tetusbo.



You speak wisdom. WotC did themselves no favors in tossing out the Great Wheel and the other 'iconic' aspects of D&D. I can understand why they did it, but I don't like it. As mentioned, I bet a (significant?) number of non-4ons would have at least sipped the Kool Aid had their familiar concepts still be around - druids, barbs, Great Wheel, etc.

Sweet, sweet regret.

Wis

And therein lies the rub.....the fact that they threw away so much of that history, so many sacred cows, so many icons makes it no longer feel like D&D to many of us. It makes us question WotC as the custodian of the D&D IP, and it makes it far, far easier, to leave them behind. Particularly when there is at least one other company that will be servicing the customers who feel like they've been left behind. I don't think D&D has ever had a situation quite like this before.

Obviously, they're the legal custodians of the IP....but when they throw away so much of it, it sure makes some customers wonder if the right company is managing the game.

Banshee

 

[delericho]

You mean the encounter system that had people calling it out as broken a month after release?

I mean the encounter system I used without issue for 8 years. When they said that it doesn't work, that flat-out did not match my experience with the system - I knew it worked because I'd been using it.

If they'd said it "could be better" or "needs work", then that would be been another thing entirely.

When 3E came out they told us they had a conversion book available, but it was not super accurate and it would probably just be easier to start new characters.

In this instance, it's not about what they said, but about how they said it. As Hussar (I think) points out up-thread, most campaigns only last about eight months anyway, so groups would likely be about ready to start over. And besides, I never had any intention of converting a campaign-in-progress. But I found the tone of the piece off-putting. (I did say this was all my opinion. )

Yet immediately after that they mysteriously appeared on the web in pdf format. Hmm.

I really, really hope WotC didn't leak these intentionally. "Here, you can have the books early, provided you're willing to break the law to get them." For what it's worth, I don't believe they did, not least because The Rouse has said they didn't.

The core math of the system isn't broken and they are releasing more books to explore more options and settings.

By 'peripheral' I meant the things that aren't the game itself: the GSL, the magazines, and the DDI. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

I should say, my post wasn't intended as a "WotC sucks!" tirade, or even a "WotC's marketing sucks!" tirade. However, I do think the marketing could have been a whole lot better, so gave the specific things I felt could have been done better.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Seriously? Yes I'll answer some stuff.

Then I'd seriously like to know how relevant you find

(a) the ENWorld community

(b) ENWorld polls

(c) the existing playerbase

(d) an ENWorld poll that implies a failure to bring along a "significant" percentage of ENWorlders.

My personal opinion on this (formed many months ago, before 4e was even confirmed IIRC) is that bringing in new players is more important than whatever portion of grognards you happen to lose.

Though it's a very lonely feeling those times that I find myself in that "left behind" minority-- I can maintain that objectivity. D&D either needs to bring in new players... or I have to start breeding.

 

[SSquirrel]

I mean the encounter system I used without issue for 8 years. When they said that it doesn't work, that flat-out did not match my experience with the system - I knew it worked because I'd been using it.

If they'd said it "could be better" or "needs work", then that would be been another thing entirely.

Congrats on no issues w/the encounter system. We had issues w/things not matching up right to be an appropriate match or else we had something that in theory was lower level than us that wiped us out due to group makeup. Some weird cat things is the specific example I'm thinking of, not a bunch of undead when we lacked a Cleric. Altho, not having a Cleric def made those fights harder than their CR said.

In this instance, it's not about what they said, but about how they said it. As Hussar (I think) points out up-thread, most campaigns only last about eight months anyway, so groups would likely be about ready to start over. And besides, I never had any intention of converting a campaign-in-progress. But I found the tone of the piece off-putting. (I did say this was all my opinion. )

The part of this that I really don't get is that you take issue w/their tone when it isn't even an issue for you. It comes off (esp in text) like you were just looking for something to get offended by. That may not be the case at all, just saying how it could come off to those reading along. I do know there are some folk out there who really do want to convert in progress campaigns, but I remember how horrible the conversion guide for 2E-3E was, so I didn't bother then and wouldn't bother now.

I really, really hope WotC didn't leak these intentionally. "Here, you can have the books early, provided you're willing to break the law to get them." For what it's worth, I don't believe they did, not least because The Rouse has said they didn't.

Bands intentionally leak albums to P2P networks to drum up interest. Heck, when Nine Inch Nails was doing their alternate reality game for the release of Year Zero, they were planting USB drives at concert venues w/songs on them. It was part of their marketing campaign. Then their label started trying to go after the people hosting said files on the web. Left hand/right hand situation completely, but it wouldn't be the first time things were leaked in this manner.

By 'peripheral' I meant the things that aren't the game itself: the GSL, the magazines, and the DDI. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

No that was clear. Those were the peripheral I was referring to as well. Altho, the long line of settings and classes and other things they want to release are truly peripheral compared to the core books as well. My point had been that those things are coming down the line as well ;_)

I should say, my post wasn't intended as a "WotC sucks!" tirade, or even a "WotC's marketing sucks!" tirade. However, I do think the marketing could have been a whole lot better, so gave the specific things I felt could have been done better.[/QUOTE]