The_Gneech
Explorer
suburbaknght said:
Oooh, crunchy goodness! This will take some perusal. Thanks!
-The Gneech
Martial Arts in d20
- Thread starter The_Gneech
- Start date
Oooh, crunchy goodness! This will take some perusal. Thanks!
-The Gneech
suburbaknght
First Post
Actually Dodge is a bonus feat for Fast heroes according to Charles Ryan. To my knowledge this is official erratta.
Bran Blackbyrd
Explorer
Re: Re: Re: Martial Arts in d20
I didn't say that that made sense. It actually seems like a bit of inconsistency in the rules.
And yes, the Nip Up situation is bogus.
We have a martial arts oriented PC in our group (fast hero I believe) and he hasn't proven to be very effective in combat yet. The player's competence is questionable, so it's hard to tell if it's the rules or the fool.
No really, it's that bad.
I'm Fast 2/Smart 1 at the moment and my PC is a mechanic. I was interested in becoming a Techie but the Techie's abilities really rely on the DM/GM too much. I'm probably going to become a Gunslinger instead.
Since it will be much more useful in his campaign. 
Spatula said:
I didn't say that that made sense. It actually seems like a bit of inconsistency in the rules.
And yes, the Nip Up situation is bogus.
We have a martial arts oriented PC in our group (fast hero I believe) and he hasn't proven to be very effective in combat yet. The player's competence is questionable, so it's hard to tell if it's the rules or the fool.
No really, it's that bad.
I'm Fast 2/Smart 1 at the moment and my PC is a mechanic. I was interested in becoming a Techie but the Techie's abilities really rely on the DM/GM too much. I'm probably going to become a Gunslinger instead.
Since it will be much more useful in his campaign. I recall making "The Ultimate Martial Artist", or at least one version of it, as one of my early experiments. I wanted to see what I could do with d20 Modern.
I wasn't dissatisfied.
I'll post more tomorrow, I swear, I've got to go to bed, but the one thing I would really seriously strongly urge is to NOT change the Martial Artist to make it something that the Fast Hero gets into more easily than the Strong Hero. In d20 Modern, Strength means COORDINATION IN SWINGING OR STRIKING just as much as it means RAW POWER. Don't argue that because you like the IDEA of the Fast Hero/Martial Artist, it should work more effectively than the Strong Hero/Martial Artist. I keep seeing posts where people come up with new rules for the Martial Artist that gives the class all the benefits of the Strong Hero and the Fast Hero.
As for "Nip Up", sure, I wish it were a feat and not a Daredevil talent, and I'm fine with a house rule for Tumble-checks to make it possible (although that makes tumble even more powerful than it already is). But really. Take Jackie Chan. Do you think that all his abilities, including Nip Up, come from his Martial Arts training? I sincerely doubt it. I learned "Nip Up" in real life. I didn't learn it from my martial arts school -- I learned it from gymnastics, which puts it either under Tumbling or under some kind of Enhanced Jumping Around Advanced Class -- like the Daredevil. For crying out loud, the Daredevil gets the short end of so many sticks, let him have SOMETHING of his own, would you?
I'd say that Jackie Chan is has one or two levels of Strong Hero, several levels of Fast Hero, several levels of Martial Artist, and several levels of Daredevil. That fits in perfectly with Jackie Chan's martial arts style, which delivers less raw damage than a "stand and fight" martial artist but gives him a lot of acrobatic options and makes him harder to hit.
Saeviomagy: Minor nitpick -- look up the rules for Disarming a gun. It's only "opposed attack rolls" if it's melee-weapon versus melee-weapon. For "disarming a gun or ranged weapon", you treat it as attacking an attended object -- not a gimmie, but much easier than opposed attack rolls.
Until tomorrow,
-Tacky
I wasn't dissatisfied.
I'll post more tomorrow, I swear, I've got to go to bed, but the one thing I would really seriously strongly urge is to NOT change the Martial Artist to make it something that the Fast Hero gets into more easily than the Strong Hero. In d20 Modern, Strength means COORDINATION IN SWINGING OR STRIKING just as much as it means RAW POWER. Don't argue that because you like the IDEA of the Fast Hero/Martial Artist, it should work more effectively than the Strong Hero/Martial Artist. I keep seeing posts where people come up with new rules for the Martial Artist that gives the class all the benefits of the Strong Hero and the Fast Hero.
As for "Nip Up", sure, I wish it were a feat and not a Daredevil talent, and I'm fine with a house rule for Tumble-checks to make it possible (although that makes tumble even more powerful than it already is). But really. Take Jackie Chan. Do you think that all his abilities, including Nip Up, come from his Martial Arts training? I sincerely doubt it. I learned "Nip Up" in real life. I didn't learn it from my martial arts school -- I learned it from gymnastics, which puts it either under Tumbling or under some kind of Enhanced Jumping Around Advanced Class -- like the Daredevil. For crying out loud, the Daredevil gets the short end of so many sticks, let him have SOMETHING of his own, would you?
I'd say that Jackie Chan is has one or two levels of Strong Hero, several levels of Fast Hero, several levels of Martial Artist, and several levels of Daredevil. That fits in perfectly with Jackie Chan's martial arts style, which delivers less raw damage than a "stand and fight" martial artist but gives him a lot of acrobatic options and makes him harder to hit.
Saeviomagy: Minor nitpick -- look up the rules for Disarming a gun. It's only "opposed attack rolls" if it's melee-weapon versus melee-weapon. For "disarming a gun or ranged weapon", you treat it as attacking an attended object -- not a gimmie, but much easier than opposed attack rolls.
Until tomorrow,
-Tacky
Other thoughts:
A first-level hero shouldn't be Jackie Chan.
In d20 Modern, you've got the option of specializing and getting good at one thing early, or being a Jack of All Trades. You've also got some serious flexibility. You can really be any kind of Martial Artist you want.
If you want to be the typical anime martial artist, yeah, you could go Fast/Martial Artist. OR you could go Strong/Martial Artist, choose Athletic as your occupation, and take Tumble as one of your permanent class skills. While I love Jackie Chan and martial arts movies in general, I do sometimes get annoyed that everyone wants to be the Fast Hero in order to look cooler.
There really is more than just one possibility. Assume that every class here takes Athletic as their occupation -- that means that they can all get Jump, which is a Martial Artist requirement, and Tumble, which everyone takes as a must-have for a martial artist. As an athletic occupational person, they can also take Archaic Weapons Proficiency, which suits them pretty well when swinging ancient martial arts weapons, no?
Strong: This one is the duh. This is the martial artist optimized for damage delivery, and all other things being equal, he'll hit more often than any other character.
Fast: This is the martial artist who focuses on defense. He won't do as much damage as the Strong guy, but he'll get hit a lot less often, and he'll have more Skill Points to play with.
Tough: This is the martial artist who can get hit a whole bunch of times and still keep hitting back. With a bunch of hit points and the possibility of fighting on while at negative hit points or reducing incoming damage, this guy gets overlooked way too much.
Smart: Okay, not an immediate candidate -- he'd need to be a Smart6 before he could get into the Martial Arts class anyway, but just for fun, take a look at him: he'll have the option of using Exploit Weakness, Plan, or Trick, and he'll have a TON of skill points to play with. He won't be a damage dealer, but if you trick him out with the Defensive Martial Arts feat chain, he's still pretty tough to hit, and he could work as part of a group.
Dedicated: All martial arts masters seem to end up as Dedicated/Martial Artists. They attack decently, they get a not-lousy defense bonus, and they have that wonderful Improved Aid Another talent, which they can take multiple times. Or they could bump up their Tumbling, Balance, or Jump skills with Skill Emphasis and then later take Faith and Cool Under Pressure, giving them a little edge in combat.
Charismatic: Almost as unlikely as Smart, but just for fun, take a look. Forget Charm -- go with Fast Talk, Dazzle, and Taunt to be the guy who rattles his opponent in the fight, or look at the Coordination chain to help your buddies fight well as a team.
So there are your basic classes. As far as Advanced Classes go, I can see taking a couple of them for their benefits. Your average Ninja is gonna be, what, a Fast/Infiltrator/Martial Artist, right? The mooks the bad guy uses as his personal protectors are gonna have a couple levels in Bodyguard. And, frankly, for sheer killing power, the Soldier is the class to love.
Back when I tried to build my Ultimate Unarmed Combatant, I ended up with a Strong3/Fast1/Martial Artist6/Soldier10. The guy ended up with a great attack bonus and did, as I recall, 1d8+(some absurd number from strength, melee smash, and greater weapon specialization) + 1d4 from streetfighting, and had a critical threat range of 18-20 (martial arts feats plus soldier talents) for x3 damage -- and because he was a soldier10, he didn't have to roll to confirm a critical -- a critical threat was always a critical hit.
Was this guy the best martial artist ever? Doubtful. He was great for what I wanted him for, though.
The character I'm thinking about now is a Charismatic Martial Artist -- basically, I wanna make Elvis. (Elvis practiced Kenpo under Ed Parker and was actually much better than the cheesy choreography of his movies makes him look.)
-Tacky
A first-level hero shouldn't be Jackie Chan.
In d20 Modern, you've got the option of specializing and getting good at one thing early, or being a Jack of All Trades. You've also got some serious flexibility. You can really be any kind of Martial Artist you want.
If you want to be the typical anime martial artist, yeah, you could go Fast/Martial Artist. OR you could go Strong/Martial Artist, choose Athletic as your occupation, and take Tumble as one of your permanent class skills. While I love Jackie Chan and martial arts movies in general, I do sometimes get annoyed that everyone wants to be the Fast Hero in order to look cooler.
There really is more than just one possibility. Assume that every class here takes Athletic as their occupation -- that means that they can all get Jump, which is a Martial Artist requirement, and Tumble, which everyone takes as a must-have for a martial artist. As an athletic occupational person, they can also take Archaic Weapons Proficiency, which suits them pretty well when swinging ancient martial arts weapons, no?
Strong: This one is the duh. This is the martial artist optimized for damage delivery, and all other things being equal, he'll hit more often than any other character.
Fast: This is the martial artist who focuses on defense. He won't do as much damage as the Strong guy, but he'll get hit a lot less often, and he'll have more Skill Points to play with.
Tough: This is the martial artist who can get hit a whole bunch of times and still keep hitting back. With a bunch of hit points and the possibility of fighting on while at negative hit points or reducing incoming damage, this guy gets overlooked way too much.
Smart: Okay, not an immediate candidate -- he'd need to be a Smart6 before he could get into the Martial Arts class anyway, but just for fun, take a look at him: he'll have the option of using Exploit Weakness, Plan, or Trick, and he'll have a TON of skill points to play with. He won't be a damage dealer, but if you trick him out with the Defensive Martial Arts feat chain, he's still pretty tough to hit, and he could work as part of a group.
Dedicated: All martial arts masters seem to end up as Dedicated/Martial Artists. They attack decently, they get a not-lousy defense bonus, and they have that wonderful Improved Aid Another talent, which they can take multiple times. Or they could bump up their Tumbling, Balance, or Jump skills with Skill Emphasis and then later take Faith and Cool Under Pressure, giving them a little edge in combat.
Charismatic: Almost as unlikely as Smart, but just for fun, take a look. Forget Charm -- go with Fast Talk, Dazzle, and Taunt to be the guy who rattles his opponent in the fight, or look at the Coordination chain to help your buddies fight well as a team.
So there are your basic classes. As far as Advanced Classes go, I can see taking a couple of them for their benefits. Your average Ninja is gonna be, what, a Fast/Infiltrator/Martial Artist, right? The mooks the bad guy uses as his personal protectors are gonna have a couple levels in Bodyguard. And, frankly, for sheer killing power, the Soldier is the class to love.
Back when I tried to build my Ultimate Unarmed Combatant, I ended up with a Strong3/Fast1/Martial Artist6/Soldier10. The guy ended up with a great attack bonus and did, as I recall, 1d8+(some absurd number from strength, melee smash, and greater weapon specialization) + 1d4 from streetfighting, and had a critical threat range of 18-20 (martial arts feats plus soldier talents) for x3 damage -- and because he was a soldier10, he didn't have to roll to confirm a critical -- a critical threat was always a critical hit.
Was this guy the best martial artist ever? Doubtful. He was great for what I wanted him for, though.
The character I'm thinking about now is a Charismatic Martial Artist -- basically, I wanna make Elvis. (Elvis practiced Kenpo under Ed Parker and was actually much better than the cheesy choreography of his movies makes him look.)
-Tacky
Thain
First Post
I am currently playing a Smart 6 / Martial Artist 4, in a D20 modern game based on HKAT flicks, we've got the John Woo fast/gunslinger, the yakuza-swordsman strong/soldier and two martial artists: the strong/tough/MA brawler and me... Exploit Weakness is just so unbelivably fun...
"Gah! I will crush you!" screams BBEG, "Fear my kung-fu! I have studied under the greatest masters of-"
"Ha, you studied at the YMCA under Koto-sensei..." replies the smart hero, stepping forward, "He teaches all his brown-belts that same silly stance."
Proceed to use Exploit Weakness, significant cross-classed tumble skill, and any handy peices of furniture to beat up the bad guy.
"Gah! I will crush you!" screams BBEG, "Fear my kung-fu! I have studied under the greatest masters of-"
"Ha, you studied at the YMCA under Koto-sensei..." replies the smart hero, stepping forward, "He teaches all his brown-belts that same silly stance."
Proceed to use Exploit Weakness, significant cross-classed tumble skill, and any handy peices of furniture to beat up the bad guy.
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
takyris said:
Well, actually, a pistol whip is on the list as being a simple melee weapon, just like a rifle butt.
I'd say that bumps them into the category where an opposed roll is called for. At the very least, it's a grey area of the rules.
jerichothebard
First Post
suburbaknght said:
This was a phenomonal amount of work - thanks for sharing! I have every intention of using this stuff...
btw, have you guys seen some of the stuff the game mechanics are putting out as freebies? In a very similar vein as this stuff, and written by Rich Redman. Worth checking out...
http://www.thegamemechanics.com/freebies/index.asp
Look for Martial Arts Mayhem.
jericho
