D&D General Martial/Caster balance and the Grease spell

[MarkB]

Yeah, this "jumping is the solution to Grease" answer doesn't do the work in play that is being proposed when Team PC is casting it strategically; Ready shenanigans on lead creature to eff up a conga line at a choke point or cast it adjacent to creatures/PC front line/blocking terrain configuration which can't be jumped over/into (thus amplifying existing terrain structures or basically imposing a "walk through this grease and suffer the consequence or we will range you to death where you stand" dynamic).

That is a beefy effect for a 1st level spell. If you're a clever, high level PC Enchanter, that is a great, low cost control choice vs Dex and then you use the rest of your suite of abilities to attack Wis + Int and loadout surveillance/utility.

Sure, you can get a lot of use out of it in conjunction with the right set of terrain features, class features and strategic positioning. But in a case like that, is it really the grease that's doing the heavy lifting at this point? Or is it just the oily icing on the cake, adding an effect that could have been achieved almost as effectively by just strewing some caltrops or ball bearings across the area?

 

[Dessert Nomad]

That isn't really how I've seen it deployed typically on chokepoints. On chokepoints I've seen it used (like in this case) > Ready and cast at creature's (tank in this case) feet when they have already spent enough move/action economy to make it punitive > Cast + failed Dex save (this Enchanter could Portent to ensure a failed save if the lead tank somehow miraculously saved) and stand from Prone on 1st monster = monster behind can't long jump over it due to the obstruction. That is what happened here. It effectively (as a 1st level spell) caused action denial by proxy of 4 tanks.

I don't understand what the '4 tanks' are doing here, and especially why tank 1 just stands in the way of his friends. Why doesn't he either attack from prone (so not blocking a jumper) if he's next to a target, or stand up and then dash towards wherever he was going in the first place so that they're not all stuck behind him? You're talking about this like it's really super-amazing, and yet it seems like your fire giants could have really easily gotten around it.

I'll also point out that you've got an 18th level caster who can't have up a concentration spell and can't take reactions including counterspell (readying a spell as an action requires concentration and uses your reaction). You're also using up one of a Diviner's (I'm assuming Enchanter was a typo) three daily portent uses for this - you don't get to see if the tank 'somehow miraculously saves, "You must choose to do so before the roll". Since this fight didn't involve enemy casters that's not a big deal, but in a lot of fights designed to challenge 18th level parties not being able to counterspell is a huge risk.

On a battlefield (like the Bay here), you typically have a bunch of other difficult/blocking terrain (cargo + pillars + ships in the scenario above) so you put Grease in a spot with adjacent blocking terrain so you can't just jump it (because you'll be ending in an illegal blocking terrain square). So effectively, you shut down a much larger area than you would otherwise, forcing creatures to move around the area...basically action denial/catch-22 by proxy of screwing with action/move economy via amplifying the screw-job of the existing terrain.

If the grease is completely blocked by terrain on the other side, why would you try to move through it in the first place? If you can't jump across it without ending in 'adjacent blocking terrain' then you also can't walk across it without ending in 'adjacent blocking terrain, so there's no reason to try to cross the grease in the first place. Maybe for 1 square creatures it's some weird thing with diagonals at the edge, but fire giants are 3x3 and can at best squeeeze down to 2x2 - so I really don't see how you're going to create an area that can be blocked by 2x2 grease and that a 3x3 creature can walk through but couldn't possibly jump across. The geometry you're describing doesn't sound like something that's actually sensible.

Incidentally, if the whole area is crowded that the 3x3 huge creatures are constantly having to squeeze into 2x2 areas, you're already making the fight extremely disadvantageous to the 3x3 creatures since they're mostly going to be in what's effectively difficult terrain, attacking at disadvantage and giving you advantage. What you're describing sounds like the terrain is an overwhelming disadvantage to the fire giant tanks in the first place - though again, that's just a guess because the terrain description doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Manbearcat]

Sure, you can get a lot of use out of it in conjunction with the right set of terrain features, class features and strategic positioning. But in a case like that, is it really the grease that's doing the heavy lifting at this point? Or is it just the oily icing on the cake, adding an effect that could have been achieved almost as effectively by just strewing some caltrops or ball bearings across the area?

Its absolutely about the strategic deployment of it, of course. Its not point-and-click like ridiculously powerful higher level spells that just outright end encounters. But that isn't the point. This can basically be used at-will. At endgame specifically, its effective deployment can be brutal for really no Team PC resource ablation.

At level 18, you're talking 19 DC for Grease. That is as close to a sure thing as it gets for 0 to +3 Dex Save creatures.

Caltrops cover 1 square (or 1/4 the area of Grease) and are only DC 15.

Ball Bearings cover 2 squares (or 1/2 the area of Grease) and are a measly DC 10.

Neither of those things are remotely worth the action economy for Fighters or Rogues at that level. Grease is profoundly better in Area of Effect and Save DC for team PC.


EDIT - @Dessert Nomad - These were 2 * 2 creatures in a long 10 ft hall entering a huge bay (they're just reskinned FGs in terms of stats/abilities, size-wise they're large). You can't just jump over obstructions like you're thinking. Large creatures w/ any girth/size or PCs in your landing spot or blocking terrain in your landing spot shut that down. The PC in question didn't have to use Portent as the likelihood of saving against was remote due to the creature having an, I think it was, 20 % chance of success on the Dex save (they just had it in their back pocket to ensure it if needed).

As far as amplifying punitive terrain configurations goes, I don't know what to tell you. Its pretty straight-forward. There are all kinds of blocking terrain +PC configuration battlefield setup that makes erecting a punitive 4 SQ area on a battlefield very punishing for a 2*2 creature/tank. In 4e, this was more gameable (intentionally) because of (a) all of the varying kinds of hazards that the battlefield would feature + (b) all of the Forced Move effects. But 5e battlemaps should absolutely feature blocking terrain (which PCs and cohorts effectively are) and difficult terrain.

 

[Shiroiken]

Grease is a lot less useful when you realize that
1) you only lose half your movement, assuming you even fail the save
2) most creatures can just jump over it if they move 10 ft towards it first

 

[Flamestrike]

This thread prompted me to read the 5e Grease spell. Here's the core effect of the spell:

When the grease appears, each creature standing in its area must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. A creature that enters the area or ends its turn there must also succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or fall prone.​

To me, this seems a microcosm of the issues with balance in contemporary, non-4e, D&D play.

The effect is of (roughly) equal utility at all levels - being prone is a debuff that costs movement to overcome, and there is no general tendency of higher-level NPCs/monsters to have immunity to the debuff (eg flying) nor to have more of the resource used to overcome it (ie movement rate). (The fact that the 5e movement penalty to stand from prone isn't as severe as in some other editions doesn't change the fact that it is a penalty that facilitates mobility-based tactics on the player side, as well as an immediate debuff against close combat attacks.)

But the cost - the expenditure of a 1st level spell slot - reduces dramatically with level, particularly given Arcane Recovery, and at the highest levels of play Spell Mastery. (This is the contrast with 4e - an encounter or daily power is an encounter or daily power, and there is no particular class build that reduces this to a negligible resource cost.)

Meanwhile, at this level a Fighter can knock people prone at will (Shove action, shield master if he wants to get good at it) or several times per short rest with an attack (Pushing strike Maneuver)

The only advantage grease has is it effects an area, and sticks around creating a little area of difficult terrain.

It therefore seems to me that this ability is broken,

No. It isnt.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Is it really worth using grease in a level 2+ spell slot? If not, you are effectively limited to 4 uses per day, by virtue of having better spells to use in those higher level slots.

 

[Dessert Nomad]

EDIT - @Dessert Nomad - These were 2 * 2 creatures in a long 10 ft hall entering a huge bay (they're just reskinned FGs in terms of stats/abilities, size-wise they're large). You can't just jump over obstructions like you're thinking. Large creatures w/ any girth/size or PCs in your landing spot or blocking terrain in your landing spot shut that down.

At no point did I talk about jumping over obstructions, I talked about jumping over the grease effect itself and possibly a prone creature, which is generally less than 5' tall, especially if you're house ruling them to only large size instead of giant. Again, the problem with the obstructions you're describing is that if they shut down jumping to a square, they also shut down walking to the square, so there's no reason for the tanks to be walking there. If there are PCs in the area, aren't the giants going to want to stop to attack them?

Again, the geometry you're talking about doesn't make sense to me, and sounds like at best it's really tailored to making this specific tactic work, not something generally applicable.

The PC in question didn't have to use Portent as the likelihood of saving against was remote due to the creature having an, I think it was, 20 % chance of success on the Dex save (they just had it in their back pocket to ensure it if needed).

As I pointed out before, portent is not a 'back pocket' ability, you have to use it before you see the roll. It doesn't 'ensure if needed'

As far as amplifying punitive terrain configurations goes, I don't know what to tell you. Its pretty straight-forward. There are all kinds of blocking terrain +PC configuration battlefield setup that makes erecting a punitive 4 SQ area on a battlefield for a 2*2 creature/tank. In 4e, this was more gameable (intentionally) because of (a) all of the varying kinds of hazards that the battlefield would feature + (b) all of the Forced Move effects. But 5e battlemaps should absolutely feature blocking terrain (which PCs and cohorts effectively are) and difficult terrain.

It's not straight-forward at all, you've listed contradictory elements to the terrain - both that it is completely blocked on one side (so that someone can't simply jump over the grease effect) and that creatures for some reason want to walk across the grease to the other side. If all of the 'landing zones' are blocked, so are all of the 'walking to' zones.

 

[FrogReaver]

If the fire giant like enemies cannot get to the PCs then they should be doing their equivalent of throwing rocks. Yes, it’s not as strong but still very effective if focus fired.

 

[Manbearcat]

@Dessert Nomad

For some reason we aren’t clicking. This is my last post and I’m out for the evening. Essential parts:

1) You can’t horizontal long jump over something 5 ft. For all intents and purposes they’re blocking terrain.

2) A prone tank in the Grease (who can’t move because they don’t have the action economy) is 5 ft or more of clearance. You can’t clear it. So you can’t jump over the prone tank.

3) Blocking Terrain or a PC (5ft +) on the other side of Grease can’t be jumped over in a horizontal jump.

4) You can’t land in a square of Blocking Terrain.

 

[MarkB]

@Dessert Nomad

For some reason we aren’t clicking. This is my last post and I’m out for the evening. Essential parts:

1) You can’t horizontal long jump over something 5 ft. For all intents and purposes they’re blocking terrain.

2) A prone tank in the Grease (who can’t move because they don’t have the action economy) is 5 ft or more of clearance. You can’t clear it. So you can’t jump over the prone tank.

3) Blocking Terrain or a PC (5ft +) on the other side of Grease can’t be jumped over in a horizontal jump.

4) You can’t land in a square of Blocking Terrain.

A prone, conscious team-mate isn't a terrain feature, they're an ally, and you can move through an ally's space so long as you don't end your turn there. Effectively, they're flattening down or scootching to one side of their space to let you get past them. Heck, there's no rule that you can't jump through their space even if they're standing up.