D&D (2024) Martial/Caster fix.

[Micah Sweet]

Nah it's a real problem, and we know it's a real problem because

1: Not only is it a recurring subject in every D&D-related forum I've ever been to, but...

2: It's also interestingly not a recurring subject in several discussion forums where D&D isn't the main system being discussed, and finally...

3: I know several people irl who refuse to play several systems or classes specifically because of the caster martial imbalance issues. Systems in question? D&D 5, PF1, D&D 3.0-3.5.


I'm not objecting to simplicity of design, but I'd prefer if simplicity of design wasn't used as a cudgel to beat down martials. Why is it always that martials have to be simple? Why can't we have a mechanically complex martial class? Why can't we have a mechanically simple caster?

I know a D&D 5e-adjacent game that supports mechanically complex martials...

 

[Corinnguard]

Why can't we have a mechanically simple caster?

What would it even look like mechanically? And is there a spellcasting class that comes even close to being considered simple? I have yet to meet one.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

It's a problem that no one can do anything about, except play some other system (where you will run into the exact same "problem"). IME, Spellcasters dominate all systems, even superhero ttrpgs.

There is no escape

Nah. In most other systems magic tends to be much more restricted. Either there's a real cost involved, there's some risk involved, or it's in some way much more difficult to use liberally like magic is in D&D. Try Call of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, Mörk Borg, etc etc

I admit I haven't played any superhero RPGs aside from Mutants and Masterminds but I am fairly confident that magic isn't overpowered in that system and I am willing to bet any amount of money that if you present a broken caster build I can present a non-caster that is equally broken. The cute little catch about that system is that anything that you can do with magic can also be done without magic.

You give someone permanent flight because of magic?

I make a character with permanent flight because so they are just that good at jumping.

You give someone magic beams they shoot with their eyes?

I make a character who can snap their fingers so hard it creates a shockwave of destruction.

You give someone magical mind control powers?

I make a character so charming people become their thrall.

As you can see, anything that magic can do can also be done without magic.

 

[MuhVerisimilitude]

What would it even look like mechanically? And is there a spellcasting class that comes even close to being considered simple? I have yet to meet one.

You could have something like the kineticist from PF2, or the psychic from PF2. They both rely on a small set of powers and feel like casters.

 

[Corinnguard]

You could have something like the kineticist from PF2, or the psychic from PF2. They both rely on a small set of powers and feel like casters.

The Elementalist class from Purple Martin Games' Manual of Adventurous Resources does it for me. It was based off of PF1's Kineticist class.

 

[CreamCloud0]

What would it even look like mechanically? And is there a spellcasting class that comes even close to being considered simple? I have yet to meet one.

i'd say for 5e DnD you'd probably want a caster with a short focused list of always known spells which runs on a (revised) spell points system, i think managing your different numbers of differently leveled spell slots is a more complicated method than 'i want to cast a 4th level spell, 4th level spells require 6 mana to cast'

i think there was a thread a little while back about 'what is the simplest fullcaster in 5e' IIRC what came of it was the only caster not argued for was the druid.

 

[Corinnguard]

i'd say for DnD you'd probably want a caster with a short focused list of always known spells which runs on a (revised) spell points system, i think managing your different numbers of differently leveled spell slots is a more complicated method than 'i want to cast a 4th level spell, 4th level spells require 6 mana to cast'

i think there was a thread a little while back about 'what is the simplest fullcaster in 5e' IIRC what came of it was the only caster not argued for was the druid.

MoAR's Elementalist class is a half-caster class that does make use of a spell point system. Unlike most spellcasters, the Elementalist's power is described as being raw and unrefined and thus requires some care to shape it into a true spell. It costs about 2 spell points to cast a 1st-level spell (3 pts for a 2nd-level spell, 5 pts for a 3rd-level spell, 6 pts for a 4th-level spell and about 7 pts for a 5th level spell). Spell points are also used by the Elementalist to augment the shape and substance of their Elemental blast. If you applied a Shape Augment that cost about 2 spell points with a Substance Augment that cost about 3 spell points, the blast would be the equivalent of a 3rd-level spell.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Nah. In most other systems magic tends to be much more restricted. Either there's a real cost involved, there's some risk involved, or it's in some way much more difficult to use liberally like magic is in D&D. Try Call of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, Mörk Borg, etc etc

I admit I haven't played any superhero RPGs aside from Mutants and Masterminds but I am fairly confident that magic isn't overpowered in that system and I am willing to bet any amount of money that if you present a broken caster build I can present a non-caster that is equally broken. The cute little catch about that system is that anything that you can do with magic can also be done without magic.

You give someone permanent flight because of magic?

I make a character with permanent flight because so they are just that good at jumping.

You give someone magic beams they shoot with their eyes?

I make a character who can snap their fingers so hard it creates a shockwave of destruction.

You give someone magical mind control powers?

I make a character so charming people become their thrall.

As you can see, anything that magic can do can also be done without magic.

Yup. One of the great benefits of supers setting is the potential for so many power sources.

 

[Voadam]

What would it even look like mechanically? And is there a spellcasting class that comes even close to being considered simple? I have yet to meet one.

3.5 warlock.

At will eldritch blast for your standard combat attack.

A couple always on magic powers that do not change.

Very little resource management but also nearer the power level and options of rogues and fighters than CoDzilla or wizards.

 

[Theory of Games]

Nah. In most other systems magic tends to be much more restricted. Either there's a real cost involved, there's some risk involved, or it's in some way much more difficult to use liberally like magic is in D&D. Try Call of Cthulhu, Dragonbane, Mörk Borg, etc etc

I admit I haven't played any superhero RPGs aside from Mutants and Masterminds but I am fairly confident that magic isn't overpowered in that system and I am willing to bet any amount of money that if you present a broken caster build I can present a non-caster that is equally broken. The cute little catch about that system is that anything that you can do with magic can also be done without magic.

You give someone permanent flight because of magic?

I make a character with permanent flight because so they are just that good at jumping.

You give someone magic beams they shoot with their eyes?

I make a character who can snap their fingers so hard it creates a shockwave of destruction.

You give someone magical mind control powers?

I make a character so charming people become their thrall.

As you can see, anything that magic can do can also be done without magic.

Ah but there is a real cost involved in the Vancian system: TIME. The time spent memorizing the spells and the time spent waiting until they can be memorized and cast again. And the character can't get that time back.

I know CoC uses a Point system with its spellcasting and the character retains memory of the spell after using it - not as restrictive as D&D - but since the great majority of CoC PCs & NPCs are not spellcasters, the latter group can easily dominate the other mundane characters.

In many (I have a lot) superhero ttrpgs, spellcasters have a much wider array of capabilities than other superhumans because that's how magic works in most comic books. Dr. Strange (Marvel) and Dr. Fate (DC) dominate in most situations because they have to be powerful enough to defend their entire multiverse from extradimensional horrors and rogue spellcasters. I mean, Superman - easily one of the most powerful superheroes ever - is completely useless against magic These comic book tropes have translated over into the ttrpgs that emulate those settings and characters, with "Super-Mages" dominating the scene.

Again, for the most part, spellcasters just dominate wherever they are.