I will, however, give you credit for presenting your work with a far more professional appearance than I am capable... but I don't feel like spending over $100 for software to enable me to create pdf character sheets. I've pretty much confined all my efforts to handwriting and sketching everything in notebooks.
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Neo
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Thrudjelmer
If you check table 6-4 I think in the book you'll see capacities are worked from Heavy Load not Max load and the carrying capcities as I listed their capacities were done in the same way.
So venom as I statted him could lift barely 358 tons of the ground.. but were not exactly talking bench press ability, but on that point I will concede it is high.
Also bare in mind that limits for heroes when the FASERIP game was published are not the limits they have now, characters have evolved been shown to lift a great many things.
To cite the hulk from your previous post he's been seen to lift many many hundreds of tons in his comics.. yet by the old faserip system he couldn't lift more than about 125 and even that would require a 99-100 roll.
To cite another example Superman was originally stated by his Creator to be able to lift an airliner at the most (50's airliner).. yet years later he is shown physically moving a planet. so what you and I may think they should be able to lift and what tey later are shown to move, lift, break etc.. is rarely what you may like or expect.
It is for this reason that I consult many sources when doing a conversion In order to get the most pertinent benchamrks where possible for the character.
Also regarding FASERIP columns gave a fixed number for easy reference but were actual Ranges amazing being 50-74, Monstrous 75-99 etc.. So even that system was not black and white either in how much they could lift specifically.
What we do know about venom is that he is of far greater strength than Spiderman who is himself very strong.
I disagree on spidies limit im afraid, he was shown in the 80's to lift a bus full of people.. our talk maybe 10 or 12 tons. Since then he has developed as has his powers a great deal, to have that strengths heavy load increase potentially by half again after all those years of fighting and developing and with the changes of his power is perfectly in line with him and not a huge leap.
As for size and strength it really doesnt equate to body mass and Im glad you admit that. The only reason weight lifters put on body mass is in order for their frame to more structurally be able to cope with the weights they lift and avoid injury... it doesnt equate to the level of thier actual strength specifically. You can be strong and not be big, you just physically wont be as ideal for lifting such weights above your head without risk of harm to your back.
Super wisdom was the ideal way to go, it raised the modifier without raising the stat, which is all I needed it to represent.
If you read my Super Serum you'll note it includes that factor in its right and states that in and of itself it doesn't do much as there are certain triggering therepay conditions, very specific conditions that in fact make it permanent..and that is the reason why in the Marvel universe it has never been able to be reproduced exactly... other affects can occur if it isn't used correctly, such as happened with Nick Fury.
They arent overpowered at all they just arent designed for a PL10 game..but then were talking about established heroes and not characters made for a campaign...a fact you seem to have overlooked. And i'd tell you in greater detail why exactly i've done conversions and not interpretations but i doubt you'd accept my explanation.. so read the thread or check the M&M forums the explanation is there.
Thats not quite what im saying at all, what im saying is this I do something for people to use that most are largely happy with. However there are always those that will disagree with how something is done and that is fine. But what isnt fine is turn up swear blind my way is wrong and yours is right and state my work as a result is not good, grossly misrepresented when that is purely your opinion and not a general concensus.. as that is rude and disrepestful.
If you do not like my conversions, dont look at them, dont use them and dont worry about them and move on.
So If you want to know why I did something the way I did thats cool, Im happy to explain, or if there is some error in calculation or corrections or rule not written up correctly, overall points cost miscalculated and so on Im also more than happy to hear about it. So long as it is presented in a civil and constructive manner.
But if all you have to offer to the discussion is your wrong and im right, then thats completely of no use to me, as its obvious to anyone with two brain cells to knock together that two people approaching one thing will present it differently...its just stating the obvious.
If you check table 6-4 I think in the book you'll see capacities are worked from Heavy Load not Max load and the carrying capcities as I listed their capacities were done in the same way.
So venom as I statted him could lift barely 358 tons of the ground.. but were not exactly talking bench press ability, but on that point I will concede it is high.
Also bare in mind that limits for heroes when the FASERIP game was published are not the limits they have now, characters have evolved been shown to lift a great many things.
To cite the hulk from your previous post he's been seen to lift many many hundreds of tons in his comics.. yet by the old faserip system he couldn't lift more than about 125 and even that would require a 99-100 roll.
To cite another example Superman was originally stated by his Creator to be able to lift an airliner at the most (50's airliner).. yet years later he is shown physically moving a planet. so what you and I may think they should be able to lift and what tey later are shown to move, lift, break etc.. is rarely what you may like or expect.
It is for this reason that I consult many sources when doing a conversion In order to get the most pertinent benchamrks where possible for the character.
Also regarding FASERIP columns gave a fixed number for easy reference but were actual Ranges amazing being 50-74, Monstrous 75-99 etc.. So even that system was not black and white either in how much they could lift specifically.
What we do know about venom is that he is of far greater strength than Spiderman who is himself very strong.
I disagree on spidies limit im afraid, he was shown in the 80's to lift a bus full of people.. our talk maybe 10 or 12 tons. Since then he has developed as has his powers a great deal, to have that strengths heavy load increase potentially by half again after all those years of fighting and developing and with the changes of his power is perfectly in line with him and not a huge leap.
As for size and strength it really doesnt equate to body mass and Im glad you admit that. The only reason weight lifters put on body mass is in order for their frame to more structurally be able to cope with the weights they lift and avoid injury... it doesnt equate to the level of thier actual strength specifically. You can be strong and not be big, you just physically wont be as ideal for lifting such weights above your head without risk of harm to your back.
Super wisdom was the ideal way to go, it raised the modifier without raising the stat, which is all I needed it to represent.
If you read my Super Serum you'll note it includes that factor in its right and states that in and of itself it doesn't do much as there are certain triggering therepay conditions, very specific conditions that in fact make it permanent..and that is the reason why in the Marvel universe it has never been able to be reproduced exactly... other affects can occur if it isn't used correctly, such as happened with Nick Fury.
They arent overpowered at all they just arent designed for a PL10 game..but then were talking about established heroes and not characters made for a campaign...a fact you seem to have overlooked. And i'd tell you in greater detail why exactly i've done conversions and not interpretations but i doubt you'd accept my explanation.. so read the thread or check the M&M forums the explanation is there.
Thats not quite what im saying at all, what im saying is this I do something for people to use that most are largely happy with. However there are always those that will disagree with how something is done and that is fine. But what isnt fine is turn up swear blind my way is wrong and yours is right and state my work as a result is not good, grossly misrepresented when that is purely your opinion and not a general concensus.. as that is rude and disrepestful.
If you do not like my conversions, dont look at them, dont use them and dont worry about them and move on.
So If you want to know why I did something the way I did thats cool, Im happy to explain, or if there is some error in calculation or corrections or rule not written up correctly, overall points cost miscalculated and so on Im also more than happy to hear about it. So long as it is presented in a civil and constructive manner.
But if all you have to offer to the discussion is your wrong and im right, then thats completely of no use to me, as its obvious to anyone with two brain cells to knock together that two people approaching one thing will present it differently...its just stating the obvious.
Neo said:
Well, I was looking for Marvel M&M conversions to save myself the time of statting them out myself, and as I said, your's look really nice just on appearance... but what irks me the most about them is even when you're wrong, you refuse to accept the negative criticism and hide behind the argument that no two people will do things the same way. Still, I may have been looking at the wrong column to determine maximum weight, but even after I went to the right column I find the Strength scores are still over-powered. Such as your Venom having a max press of around 175 tons whereas you point out the Hulk's max press starts out at about 70 tons and goes up as he gets angrier. There's just no way that Venom is stronger than the Hulk... unless you give the symbiote TO the Hulk, but that's all just speculative nonsense.
Anyhow, speaking of the symbiote, Venom's costume should clearly have been given the Device flaw as Brock loses all his powers without it. Sure, its a living thing, but that doesn't really matter much, does it? Overall, the effect is the same if you remove it from him just the same as removing the Iron Man armor from Tony Stark.
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Neo
Explorer
I'd urge you to check Valider.com out his lower PL interpretations are probably more what your looking for.
Odd as what irks me most is that you refuse to accept that anyone else is entitled to an opinion. And that your way isnt necessarily right. I made the conversions how I would do them, I can tell you how and why i did them the way I did, but if you don't accept what im telling you in those regards then its your problem not mine.
If you just wanted to say fine I dont like your conversion then thats fine go away and do your own, but if you want to say how i did them is wrong and that they're not any good without having the facts to back up such out of line comments then your just wasting my time.
The hulk can lift and has many many many hundreds of tons.. so how is venoms 175 tons stronger than the hulk? Your information is out of date and unsupported. Venoms strength as I gave ti may be a little too high but it isn't hugely inaccurate and the comics support that.
how can it be a device if its alive and sentient? besides how the device flaw has been clarified by Green Ronin makes it much clearer as to what would be a device flawed thing and what wouldn't..and Venom is not a Device flawed being... though if you disagree with that I suggest you take it up with them not me
Venom's symbiote is alive and sentient, but Venom uses it like a device. Its no more than an organic power suit that has its own thoughts... without a host, its much less effective than Venom as a whole and Brock is a whole lot less than Venom without the symbiote. Its nothing more than a living tool.
As for his Strength being a "little" too high, I disagree. Venom should not be stronger than the Hulk at all... not before the raging begins or at any point during the Hulk's rage. So, the point I was making is: If the Hulk's Heavy Load starts off at about 70 tons, then Venom's Heavy Load of 175 tons is grossly out of proportion... and if you think that's only a "little too high," then you shouldn't be calling them character conversions, you should be calling them character interpretations. As conversions, I think you've failed miserably... if you want to present them as just your opinion of the heroes, then you should make some sort of clear statement to that effect rather than calling them conversions. Its misleading and leads to people like me calling you out on it.
As for his Strength being a "little" too high, I disagree. Venom should not be stronger than the Hulk at all... not before the raging begins or at any point during the Hulk's rage. So, the point I was making is: If the Hulk's Heavy Load starts off at about 70 tons, then Venom's Heavy Load of 175 tons is grossly out of proportion... and if you think that's only a "little too high," then you shouldn't be calling them character conversions, you should be calling them character interpretations. As conversions, I think you've failed miserably... if you want to present them as just your opinion of the heroes, then you should make some sort of clear statement to that effect rather than calling them conversions. Its misleading and leads to people like me calling you out on it.
Ghostwind
First Post
Thrudjelmer, I think it would be reasonable to notch it down a little on the tone before your criticism is taken in a completely wrong manner that I am sure it was intended.
Let's look at a couple of realistic facts here. Number one, only Marvel and Green Ronin will ever have the right to make a true M&M character conversion by your definition unless a third party obtains an exclusive license. Therefore anyone else's works will be character interpretations.
Secondly, anytime an individual takes the time and goes to the lengths that both Neo and Valdier have concerning "converting" characters to other gaming systems and makes that work available for free for everyone, there is no reason and no call to condemn that person if you have a difference of opinion. Putting it simply, if you don't like their work, don't use it. But don't come flying into a public forum and bash these people for the work they've done because you disagree with how they determined the math or powers. There can be disagreement without condemnation. Neither Neo nor Valdier have to admit they are wrong because you feel their "interpretations" do not match yours.
Anytime you have two individual fans converting their favorite comic book character to a superhero RPG, there is going to be a difference between those conversion that is based on each person's perception of that hero. For example, I am old enough to remember when Alan Scott and Hal Jordan were the only Green Lanterns in the DC Universe. But a friend of mine began reading Green Lantern when it was Guy Gardner and the whole Lantern Corps. So if each of us were to do a Green Lantern conversion without the other knowing, I would likely base mine off of Hal Jordan (going with the need to recharge the battery every night and making him lower powered) while he would have Guy in his mind (and have a more powerful GL). It's all in how you look at things. If you think Venom's strength is too much, then adjust it for your campaign or look around on the web (or the Mutants & Masterminds forums) for an alternative source that meets your needs. I for one, appreciate the work that both Neo and Valdier have done and look forward to future conversions from both.
Let's look at a couple of realistic facts here. Number one, only Marvel and Green Ronin will ever have the right to make a true M&M character conversion by your definition unless a third party obtains an exclusive license. Therefore anyone else's works will be character interpretations.
Secondly, anytime an individual takes the time and goes to the lengths that both Neo and Valdier have concerning "converting" characters to other gaming systems and makes that work available for free for everyone, there is no reason and no call to condemn that person if you have a difference of opinion. Putting it simply, if you don't like their work, don't use it. But don't come flying into a public forum and bash these people for the work they've done because you disagree with how they determined the math or powers. There can be disagreement without condemnation. Neither Neo nor Valdier have to admit they are wrong because you feel their "interpretations" do not match yours.
Anytime you have two individual fans converting their favorite comic book character to a superhero RPG, there is going to be a difference between those conversion that is based on each person's perception of that hero. For example, I am old enough to remember when Alan Scott and Hal Jordan were the only Green Lanterns in the DC Universe. But a friend of mine began reading Green Lantern when it was Guy Gardner and the whole Lantern Corps. So if each of us were to do a Green Lantern conversion without the other knowing, I would likely base mine off of Hal Jordan (going with the need to recharge the battery every night and making him lower powered) while he would have Guy in his mind (and have a more powerful GL). It's all in how you look at things. If you think Venom's strength is too much, then adjust it for your campaign or look around on the web (or the Mutants & Masterminds forums) for an alternative source that meets your needs. I for one, appreciate the work that both Neo and Valdier have done and look forward to future conversions from both.
No, it is not well put. Just because someone goes to the effort and time of making something available to everyone does not automatically validate the end result as good or worthwhile. If that were the case, anyone could make up completely rediculous intepretations (whereas I'm just saying I think Neo's are way off in some regards)... but as long as that person takes the time and effort to devote a website for making his utterly craptacular and completely biased creations available to the public, then everyone should just bow down and accept them as good and right on?daagon69 said:
That is just utter nonsense, and if you truly believe that effort justifies praising poor (or simply incorrect) effort, then you have no opinions of interest to me. Some of what I am pointing out, particularly the relative Strengths mentioned above, are not matters of opinion. They are facts which Neo has stretched to a point that negates any credibility his work might otherwise have. Whereas, on the other hand, my disagreement about his interpretations of Captain America's super-soldier serum have some room for opinions... but I find his opinion completely out of whack on that one. I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just saying he's quite wrong.
daagon69 said:And Neo.... so many other forumites can't be wrong eh?Keep up the great work. It is even more appreciated than you know...
Why not? Just because a bunch of people agree does not make it right. If that were the case, President Bush's attack on Iraq should have been completely accepted by the rest of the world simply because some people did. But obviously, this is not the case.
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