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Marvel Mutants and Masterminds Downloads
- Thread starter Neo
- Start date
Desdichado
Hero
I've always been partial to the "brick" characters. It'd be fun to have Juggernaut, the Thing, Abomination, Colossus, etc. done as well.
Not to get on your case or anything, Neo, since most of what I've read here is praise for your conversions... but at first glance, I came across some things that --while the numbers add up according to the rules-- just seemed a wee bit off in my opinion. I was just wondering how you decide what the limits of the character's abilities are when you're assigning the power points.
For example, Spider-man:
You have the wall-crawler's Strength score listed at 18, with the added bonus of 7 ranks of Super-Strength. This adds up to him having a maximum load of about 38 tons... this alone seems a bit more than Spidey should have as a max (it should be more like half that at best). But beyond that, if something happens to rob Spiderman of his powers, this still leaves him with the ability to lift 600 lbs max... just imagine Peter Parker for a moment so we're both on the same page here. Parker is a lean (some would say scrawny) individual, and while he has been shown to have benefitted physically from his years of web-swinging to the point where even when he had lost his powers, he was noticably stronger than he expected; but he was not the hulking brute (of an average human) that an 18 Strength would indicate.
Turning the page, let's look at Venom:
You've assigned Venom a 19 Strength and 10 ranks of Super-Strength. The 19 Strength makes a lot more sense than Parker's 18 Str above since Eddie Brock spent alot of time at the gym. However, when you add 10 ranks of Super-Strength, you're giving him the ability to lift 358 tons! This is utterly rediculous as even Thor (and other similarly powerful heroes in the Marvel universe) generally topped out around or a little over 100 tons... with the old, savage green Hulk starting there and getting stronger as his rage increased.
In addition, I skimmed through the arguement about Captain America's and Wolverine's device flaw a page or two back. First off, why is it you think the Super-Soldier serum gives Cap great strength of will? The serum's effects were purely physical and should not give a Super-Wisdom power. While I can't reference the specific issues as well as some people, I'd like to remind you of a character called Black Crow that once fought Captain America to balance the wrongs done to the Native American people by Americans... all ended well when Captain America surrendered and appeased the Indian spirits; the next time the two characters "met" was when Captain America had been poisoned and was laying on his death bed. Black Crow appeared mysteriously and used his mystic powers to enhance his "brother's" will to enable him to resist the effects of the poison. That is where Captain America's great willpower comes from, not the serum.
Next, while Captain America has been deprived of his Super Soldier serum, it was only a temporary loss and would not qualify as a device just because the "powers" can be negated by removing the serum because (whether due to the nature of the serum itself or the vita-rays activation process) the serum has become a part of his body's make-up. A complete blood transfusion deprived him temporarily, but only for a short time while his body essentially regenerated the serum. This does go beyond even your standards of device flaw at the time you created the conversion as the serum is an inherent part of the man and not just a chemical that can be removed. Regardless, you've admitted you wouldn't assign the device flaw back to him if you were going to do him again... my question is, will you?
Wolverine, on the other hand, you pretty much admitted to giving Wolverine the admantium claws only instead of going the route of natural claws with the admantium claws on top since they wouldn't stack and it would be pointless to waste the power points this way; however, though it may seem wasteful, its a more accurate representation AND doesn't cause any problems adding new bone claws if the adamantium is ever removed from him again.
I'm working right now, so I haven't had time to go over all of the details of these character conversions, let alone examine some of your other conversions... but I'm going to have to take a good, close look at them before I'd agree that they are good conversions. This isn't merely a difference of opinion or my take vs. your take; these are gross misrepresentations. Gross misrepresentations are never good character conversions.
I hope, once whatever this mysterious book you're waiting for Green Ronin to announce becomes available, that you make corrections to the old conversions where appropriate instead of just leaving them up with (hopefully) more accurate newer conversions.
Just my $.02 on the matter.
For example, Spider-man:
You have the wall-crawler's Strength score listed at 18, with the added bonus of 7 ranks of Super-Strength. This adds up to him having a maximum load of about 38 tons... this alone seems a bit more than Spidey should have as a max (it should be more like half that at best). But beyond that, if something happens to rob Spiderman of his powers, this still leaves him with the ability to lift 600 lbs max... just imagine Peter Parker for a moment so we're both on the same page here. Parker is a lean (some would say scrawny) individual, and while he has been shown to have benefitted physically from his years of web-swinging to the point where even when he had lost his powers, he was noticably stronger than he expected; but he was not the hulking brute (of an average human) that an 18 Strength would indicate.
Turning the page, let's look at Venom:
You've assigned Venom a 19 Strength and 10 ranks of Super-Strength. The 19 Strength makes a lot more sense than Parker's 18 Str above since Eddie Brock spent alot of time at the gym. However, when you add 10 ranks of Super-Strength, you're giving him the ability to lift 358 tons! This is utterly rediculous as even Thor (and other similarly powerful heroes in the Marvel universe) generally topped out around or a little over 100 tons... with the old, savage green Hulk starting there and getting stronger as his rage increased.
In addition, I skimmed through the arguement about Captain America's and Wolverine's device flaw a page or two back. First off, why is it you think the Super-Soldier serum gives Cap great strength of will? The serum's effects were purely physical and should not give a Super-Wisdom power. While I can't reference the specific issues as well as some people, I'd like to remind you of a character called Black Crow that once fought Captain America to balance the wrongs done to the Native American people by Americans... all ended well when Captain America surrendered and appeased the Indian spirits; the next time the two characters "met" was when Captain America had been poisoned and was laying on his death bed. Black Crow appeared mysteriously and used his mystic powers to enhance his "brother's" will to enable him to resist the effects of the poison. That is where Captain America's great willpower comes from, not the serum.
Next, while Captain America has been deprived of his Super Soldier serum, it was only a temporary loss and would not qualify as a device just because the "powers" can be negated by removing the serum because (whether due to the nature of the serum itself or the vita-rays activation process) the serum has become a part of his body's make-up. A complete blood transfusion deprived him temporarily, but only for a short time while his body essentially regenerated the serum. This does go beyond even your standards of device flaw at the time you created the conversion as the serum is an inherent part of the man and not just a chemical that can be removed. Regardless, you've admitted you wouldn't assign the device flaw back to him if you were going to do him again... my question is, will you?
Wolverine, on the other hand, you pretty much admitted to giving Wolverine the admantium claws only instead of going the route of natural claws with the admantium claws on top since they wouldn't stack and it would be pointless to waste the power points this way; however, though it may seem wasteful, its a more accurate representation AND doesn't cause any problems adding new bone claws if the adamantium is ever removed from him again.
I'm working right now, so I haven't had time to go over all of the details of these character conversions, let alone examine some of your other conversions... but I'm going to have to take a good, close look at them before I'd agree that they are good conversions. This isn't merely a difference of opinion or my take vs. your take; these are gross misrepresentations. Gross misrepresentations are never good character conversions.
I hope, once whatever this mysterious book you're waiting for Green Ronin to announce becomes available, that you make corrections to the old conversions where appropriate instead of just leaving them up with (hopefully) more accurate newer conversions.
Just my $.02 on the matter.
Neo
Explorer
wow first post and the below goes straight for the jugular
Okay well ill take the time to try and answer your queries below and explain some things. But just to state now that what ill tell you about why I did things or how I do them is just that and I wont be going over and over any points raised to ad infinitum what is fairly obvious.. i.e you would do things your way and I would do them mine.. As I have absolutely no desire to get back into a conversation where we end up restating our views over and over as has occured previously in this thread. That said I'll respond to each part below.Alll the conversions are made based off a number of sources, first and foremost is the old TSR FASERIP marvel system, backed up by information from the Marvel.com site and the Marvel Directory and from two decades of reading more comics than you can shake a stick at. That said your obviously not adding things up quite right as I have no idea where you get the 38 tons number from. Spidermans 7 ranks of Super Strength multiply his carrying capacity 128 times. And as his Strength of 18 gives him a heavy load of 300lb.. thats a total of 38,400lb he can lift as a Heavy load, which is around 18 tons not 38!.
As to why he'd have a 600lb lift capacity if his powers were removed he'd still be quite strong.. now initially he was a science geek weakling.. but do you seriously think super powers or no, all those years of extremely physical activity wouldn't have toned his natural physique and improved his natural strength any? In fact if you read the recent material he is shown super powers or no as having the washboard abs, muscular physique and not the lanky, scrawny form of his youth and early comics. Also do not forget maximum load is the amount they can lift off the ground, not the amount they can at best only stagger with it.
Also just for the record 18 strength does nto necessarily mean anyone is a hulking anything.. 20 is the maximum human potential so he's hardly the perfect specimen.. plus as in the real world you can get people who are small and do not have a great deal of bdy mass that are just as strong if not stronger than those who intentionally bulk up and have muscle on muscle.
19 Strength heavy load is 350lb (700lb maximum lift which REALLY is Eddie Brocks maximum bench press amount btw). When Venom is on him it amplies his strength and gives him around 175 tons heavy load due to 10 ranks of Super Strength not 358! Again your calculations are off.
350lb heavy load x 1024 (multiplier for 10 ranks of super strength) = 358,400lb
As for the hulk, actually his light load amount was around 70 tons, and its upper limit was never and has never been specified, only that the angrier he gets the stronger he gets, which is why noone can ever beat the guy in a fist fight without playing dirty or getting help.
Do you honestly believe that having a more refined physique does not add to your mental well being and therefore mental resilience?
Its medical fact that healthy body leads to a more positive outlook, less susceptability to depression and so forth.. therefore it stands to reason that a healthier body would also lead to a more resilient mind.
But that aside Wisdom is not just Willpower, it is also cunning, guile, common sense and greater ability to assimilate the information your sense are giving you (through increase of wisdom based skills). So its a combination of things. All of which do definitely seem to have been boosted by the super soldier serum.. just look at Caps ability to enter a situation note where all potential threats are, strike them with pinpoint accuracy doing non lethal damage..taking them out in order of greatest risk to lowest risk if your in doubt these things have been affected. Also look at his ability to be beaten bad, be effectively out of the fight but then through sheer force of will make himself not only get back up and fight but win... thats why it gives a smaller Super wisdom boost (not a comparative one as to the physical abilities as you seem to think.. price of skimming i guess
).The Black Crow incident you mention.. to clarify, the reason Cap was dying was due to a poison (a physical effect) that was injected into him by the Red skull, Black Crow appeared and mystically gave cap the mental resilience to overcome it by strenght of mind...but the pertinence of this to the point in question isnt really there, a) it was a physical poison, b) magic was involved.
this is a matter of opinion. First and foremost the serum is a device because it is and was initially produced for M&M as a serum (imbibed) that could be implemented to others. It can also be reproduced and has been. Also the serum itself is useless on its own requiring very specific conditions to apply before it makes a super soldier. So in effect when your talking about Captain America losing his powers, it isnt really the serum your referring to at all, but the effects of the serum.
So as per M&M and other elixirs, potions and imbibed things etc.. it had the device flaw applied.
As for stating I wouldn't use device flaw again that was more in reference to Wolverines adamantium skeleton than Caps serum.
As for whether or not I will do Cap again, eventually I imagine he'll get a tweak but again that relates back to a certain release from GR
Its isnt really more accurate though is it.. i mean sure it was revealed eventually that wolverine did have bone claws anyway once the adamantium was released, but it is his adamantium claws that everyone more commonly associates him for. If I had given him bone claws as well it would only really have been buying a natural weapon power simply for the sake of it, as opposed to the use of it.
Wolverine in particular though is one of my conversions I have never been quite happy with as his Adamantium skeleton isnt easily applied as things stand.
Hardly and your calculations have led you to believe there are misrepresentations when in fact there aren't, so claiming they are gross misrepresentations is not only untrue, its also an unfair statement to make.
I feel I should also point out that folks will always vary on opinion as you say, some will like what is done, others won't.. thats life.
But at the end of the day you also need to realise that there are like what some 40 or so Marvel conversion on my site?, statted up by me for you guys, put together by me for you guys, PDF'ed and presented by me for you guys, on a site paid for each month (not free) by me for you guys.. in order that you can download for free some of your favourite marvel or DC heroes to use. I dont have to do any of it but I choose too.. Now I may be a little old fashion, maybe its just the way i was brought up I dont know. But when someone goes to such lengths in order provide something for someone else like that, the common response is thank you.. not to claim my conversions are not only grossly misrepresented, but not good conversions at all.. which after you admit you have only skimmed, and have also miscalculated is fairly disrespectful.
Maybe when you put as much time and effort and resources into providing something for others for free, you'll be in a better position to pass comment
Just my £.02 on the matter
My calculations were based on maximum load, not a heavy load... which means , stagger or not, you've got venom listed as being able to pick up 358.4 tons (unless a ton is no longer 2000 pounds). But still, even looking at the heavy load column, 179.2 tons is still significantly beyond what Venom should have. If you look at the old MSH system, they gave him a strength score of Amazing, which translates into about a 50 ton limit (and if he makes a Red Strength FEAT to lift something to get the +1 column shift up to Monstrous, that'd enable him to lift around 75 tons max). So, you've assigned him a Strength that with only a heavy load more than doubles the established maximum lift in the old source (MSH's FASERIP).
Again with Spiderman, a 19.2 ton heavy load is too much. That number should be about his maximum lifting capacity... not his heavy load. Also, if you take away Spiderman's powers, he wouldn't revert to his original scrawny weakling self; I acknowledged as much. If a 20 Strength is the human maximum, how can you think only 2 points lower wouldn't still be a hulking brute of an ordinary human? Yes, I know some people possess a deceptive strength the belies their size, but it wouldn't be so out of proportion that just a well-toned looking person could rival professional weight lifters. You need the bulk of added muscle mass to support that kind of strength.
As for the super soldier serum, you say its not just Willpower, it is also cunning, guile, common sense and greater ability to assimilate the information your senses are giving you. I might agree that an enhanced physical condition does improve one's senses somewhat, but I wouldn't go so far as to assign Super-Wisdom to represent that. Cap's cunning, guile, and common sense came from lots of training after he underwent the super soldier process. As for the Black Crow's magic, it was as you describe it... he gave Cap the mental fortitude to overcome the physical effects of the poison. However, this wasn't a one-time deal; it became a permanent effect. TSR acknowledged this much when they boosted his original Psyche score of Good to Amazing in later products. The serum itself boosted only physical attributes; it did not noticably alter one's perceptions or strength of will... the point of Captain America is that he isn't defined by the super soldier serum, it was only a starting point. Other's have used the serum, gaining the physical attributes... but they always lacked his intensive training and years of experience which would account for his cunning and guile, and --after Black Crow-- his willpower.
As for the serum's effects as a device, I understand reproducing the serum as a device that could be applied to others... but its not exactly a potion that one drinks and *WHAM* the imbiber is strong. It was multiple parts that, when all come together properly, permanently alter the target. It is no different than the effect of Spider-man's radioactive spider-bite in that it is just an initial source to explain the powers, and not something that needs to be done on a regular basis to activate or maintain the powers --which would be more in line with the Device flaw. Yes, the serum was temporarily removed as a result of a complete blood transfusion causing a loss of Cap's greater stamina... but so what? Hasn't nearly every other Marvel super hero lost their powers at some time? The Thing has been turned into his old human self at times, should we consider the cosmic rays that gave the Fantastic Four their powers a device? Should Spidey's blood be considered a device? What about Pym particles which grant the Wasp, Giant-man, and Ant-man their size-altering powers? As a matter of opinion, no... anything that has a permanent effect (even some magic potion) should not be considered a device after consumed and its bestowed powers become a permanent part of the recipient.
As for my criticism as a whole... What? I'm not qualified to criticize on your creations unless I provide something for others, but just anyone who's happy with your over-powered conversions is free to compliment and thank you? Just because you haven't seen anything I've done for others (none of which has been for the Mutants & Masterminds system yet), does not mean I haven't spent any time with super hero conversions or an inordinate amount of time just reading comics and being familiar enough with the content to point out where someone else has erred. Or maybe you mean that once I've made my own efforts available for you (or others) to likewise turn to and tear apart in retaliation for my comments here, that I won't understand what its like to make an effort only to have it criticized by any old schmuck.
There is nothing wrong with my position to pass comment. I may be still learning all the ins and outs of the M&M system, but that does not disqualify me from having an opinion or from pointing out where someone else (such as yourself) is clearly wrong about something.
Again with Spiderman, a 19.2 ton heavy load is too much. That number should be about his maximum lifting capacity... not his heavy load. Also, if you take away Spiderman's powers, he wouldn't revert to his original scrawny weakling self; I acknowledged as much. If a 20 Strength is the human maximum, how can you think only 2 points lower wouldn't still be a hulking brute of an ordinary human? Yes, I know some people possess a deceptive strength the belies their size, but it wouldn't be so out of proportion that just a well-toned looking person could rival professional weight lifters. You need the bulk of added muscle mass to support that kind of strength.
As for the super soldier serum, you say its not just Willpower, it is also cunning, guile, common sense and greater ability to assimilate the information your senses are giving you. I might agree that an enhanced physical condition does improve one's senses somewhat, but I wouldn't go so far as to assign Super-Wisdom to represent that. Cap's cunning, guile, and common sense came from lots of training after he underwent the super soldier process. As for the Black Crow's magic, it was as you describe it... he gave Cap the mental fortitude to overcome the physical effects of the poison. However, this wasn't a one-time deal; it became a permanent effect. TSR acknowledged this much when they boosted his original Psyche score of Good to Amazing in later products. The serum itself boosted only physical attributes; it did not noticably alter one's perceptions or strength of will... the point of Captain America is that he isn't defined by the super soldier serum, it was only a starting point. Other's have used the serum, gaining the physical attributes... but they always lacked his intensive training and years of experience which would account for his cunning and guile, and --after Black Crow-- his willpower.
As for the serum's effects as a device, I understand reproducing the serum as a device that could be applied to others... but its not exactly a potion that one drinks and *WHAM* the imbiber is strong. It was multiple parts that, when all come together properly, permanently alter the target. It is no different than the effect of Spider-man's radioactive spider-bite in that it is just an initial source to explain the powers, and not something that needs to be done on a regular basis to activate or maintain the powers --which would be more in line with the Device flaw. Yes, the serum was temporarily removed as a result of a complete blood transfusion causing a loss of Cap's greater stamina... but so what? Hasn't nearly every other Marvel super hero lost their powers at some time? The Thing has been turned into his old human self at times, should we consider the cosmic rays that gave the Fantastic Four their powers a device? Should Spidey's blood be considered a device? What about Pym particles which grant the Wasp, Giant-man, and Ant-man their size-altering powers? As a matter of opinion, no... anything that has a permanent effect (even some magic potion) should not be considered a device after consumed and its bestowed powers become a permanent part of the recipient.
As for my criticism as a whole... What? I'm not qualified to criticize on your creations unless I provide something for others, but just anyone who's happy with your over-powered conversions is free to compliment and thank you? Just because you haven't seen anything I've done for others (none of which has been for the Mutants & Masterminds system yet), does not mean I haven't spent any time with super hero conversions or an inordinate amount of time just reading comics and being familiar enough with the content to point out where someone else has erred. Or maybe you mean that once I've made my own efforts available for you (or others) to likewise turn to and tear apart in retaliation for my comments here, that I won't understand what its like to make an effort only to have it criticized by any old schmuck.
There is nothing wrong with my position to pass comment. I may be still learning all the ins and outs of the M&M system, but that does not disqualify me from having an opinion or from pointing out where someone else (such as yourself) is clearly wrong about something.
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