Marvel Mutants and Masterminds Downloads

[Ghostwind]

Thrudjelmer, one of the biggest problems with internet communication is that one loses the ability to 'hear' another's tone of voice. As a result, different meanings to one's statements are often inferred by others (both good and bad). Most often this shows up when a person makes a statement meant in jest or sarcasm and it is received as an attack. Now perhaps you never meant any of your statements and opinions to be an attack so much as it is just your way of expressing a frustration on not understanding the rationale behind Neo's conversions. I think it also sounds like you have a different take on questioning things that likely borders on being confrontational (or at least peceived that way by others). That's the problem with this whole internet thing. It's all in the perception.

But the way you are expressing yourself and thoughts does come across as abrasive to others on this board. If it was only one person, then I would chalk it up to a misunderstanding. But when others, including a moderator, get the same general feeling, then perhaps it would be best for you to take a step back and rethink things a little for the purposes of being polite and try to reword things so they won't be so quick to be taken offensively. As it stands, nearly everyone one of your posts gives the appearance that you are in the right and what we are saying is in the wrong. Even your last post to Darkness comes across with a superior attitude (like inserting the definition of critcism and telling him that he needs to better understand that meaning).

You're new to this forum and it is abundantly clear that you're not accustomed to the 'expectations' of the posters, which is normal for newcomers. But whether you agree with the moderator or not, you are expected to abide by their requests and instructions. It's just that simple. Understanding comes when both people listen to what the other says and not just block each other out.

If you feel the standards of 'attacking' are too high, there is nothing forcing you to remain here. There are plenty of other very active communities where you can also talk about gaming such as RPG.net and even the Mutants & Masterminds Boards. I am sure you will find others at either place more than willing to take up a debate with you on the proper mechanics for conversions and the 'attack standards' are a bit lower. But if you continue to adopt this confrontational attitude that your posts seem to have, then you have no one else to blame but yourself for any consequences that the moderators or even Morrus dictates.

So maybe it would be better to try to make a fresh start. Neo supplied you with the information you asked concerning Venom. If you still disagree, then why not post your conversion and cite the references behind them? No one is perfect and Neo has admitted to erring in the past. Perhaps your conversion covers something that was missed or cites a source that Neo does not have access to. I (and I'm sure others) would be interested in seeing what you have to offer as a comparison just to see what another's take on the character would be. So what about it? Care to try it again on a different tack?

 

[Thrudjelmer]

Now perhaps you never meant any of your statements and opinions to be an attack so much as it is just your way of expressing a frustration on not understanding the rationale behind Neo's conversions. I think it also sounds like you have a different take on questioning things that likely borders on being confrontational (or at least peceived that way by others). That's the problem with this whole internet thing. It's all in the perception.

Its called a no sugar-coating manner of dealing with someone. No, I'm not the most polite of people, because I don't believe in pretending to be something I'm not. I realize that some intent normally conveyed through inflection and facial expressions is lost when communicating in a text-based forum such as this, but I also feel that this "let's all be super-polite to each other" demeanor has softened internet microcosms to the point where some people take any disagreement of their opinions/statements and consider it an inflametory statement. Everyone needs to get over it.

I started out my questioning by asking from where Neo derives his information to arrive at the numbers he had assigned, and then pointing out a few examples that were grossly out of proportion with the majority of published material pertaining to those characters. He is NOT a little off, or a little too generous with his numbers... he is way off. Stating something is a "gross misrepresentation" or doubting the credibility of all of his work based on something that is quite obviously in error when it does easily convert from other game systems and published facts (such as a Strength score based on a maximum lifting capacity) is not an insult. If it comes off as insulting, that's your (collectively) perception of it and you need to broaden your perceptions, not limit my perfectly valid use speech.

But the way you are expressing yourself and thoughts does come across as abrasive to others on this board. If it was only one person, then I would chalk it up to a misunderstanding. But when others, including a moderator, get the same general feeling, then perhaps it would be best for you to take a step back and rethink things a little for the purposes of being polite and try to reword things so they won't be so quick to be taken offensively. As it stands, nearly everyone one of your posts gives the appearance that you are in the right and what we are saying is in the wrong. Even your last post to Darkness comes across with a superior attitude (like inserting the definition of critcism and telling him that he needs to better understand that meaning).

You know, I offer no apologies to Darkness for that. If he can't understand that to criticize is to be critical of, then he should not tell someone it is okay to criticize. He blatantly illustrated his lack of grasp of "criticize" with an example of a completely non-critical statement & question... and honestly, if he can't understand something so basic, then I am superior to him in --at very least-- my grasp of the English language. That doesn't mean I think I'm a better person, but I'm certainly going to criticize his short-coming since HE is a moderator and should be able to both clearly understand AND explain his meaning to others that he moderates.

You're new to this forum and it is abundantly clear that you're not accustomed to the 'expectations' of the posters, which is normal for newcomers. But whether you agree with the moderator or not, you are expected to abide by their requests and instructions. It's just that simple. Understanding comes when both people listen to what the other says and not just block each other out.

I do feel, at this point, a need to be insulting... and I'm gonna do it. I may have started off with an unpopular stance, and I've certainly done nothing to win over anyone else with my statements, but --abrasive or not, at least I'm consistent and honest without actually being insulting (regardless of how some of you have mis-percieved my ealier statements). Of course, because I'm not expressing praise or even what some might deem a proper amount of respect that they feel Neo is due, I'm called a troll. I may be new to EN World, but I am no forum-n00b. Troll is a very derogatory term, and is popularly defined as "One who purposely and deliberately (that purpose usually being self-amusement) starts an argument in a manner which attacks others on a forum without in any way listening to the arguments proposed by his or her peers. He will spark of such an argument via the use of ad hominem attacks (i.e. 'you're nothing but a fanboy' is a popular phrase) with no substance or relevence to back them up as well as straw man arguments, which he uses to simply avoid addressing the essence of the issue." Isn't that an attack? Isn't it a touch of hipocracy to chastize me for being insulting and attacking others, then attacking me with an insult?

I'm not doing this for my self-amusement. I was looking for Marvel conversions to the M&M system. This thread actually came before Neo's website when I did a Google search, so I came and looked... and browsed the conversions on the first page... and eventually looked over his website... It didn't hit me right away, but I noticed a handful of things I would've done differently --including Captain America's super-soldier serum as already discussed. I conceded that some of my points were just my own take as Neo points out, and I admitted my error when he pointed out that I was looking at the wrong column to determine Heavy Load for Strength scores. However, even after correcting myself and using the right columns to get the right numbers, I still see excessive Strength scores... and so I continue, in a critical manner, to question Neo about his sources and reason for obviously wrong numbers. I was accused of being insulting when I made comments that were clearly not directed at Neo specifically but only as a hypothetical example of the blind loyalty being displayed to Neo simply because he tried, and Neo himself shifted his defense to something I wasn't even criticizing to begin with (specifically, the established PLs --which I never questioned). At this point, I'm merely defending my not being a troll.

If you feel the standards of 'attacking' are too high, there is nothing forcing you to remain here. There are plenty of other very active communities where you can also talk about gaming such as RPG.net and even the Mutants & Masterminds Boards. I am sure you will find others at either place more than willing to take up a debate with you on the proper mechanics for conversions and the 'attack standards' are a bit lower. But if you continue to adopt this confrontational attitude that your posts seem to have, then you have no one else to blame but yourself for any consequences that the moderators or even Morrus dictates.

I doubt it. It seems like the internet community is polarized between a complete "no arguing, play nice" policy or a complete free-for-all where mud-slinging, name-calling, and personal attacks are not only acceptable --they're encouraged!

Its one thing to put restrictions on what is legitimately an attack... in fact, its a necessity to keep things from degrading into base insults and random inflametory remarks. However, a zero-tolerance policy on confrontation is just as bad. It smacks of censorship --not just where needed-- but also of legitimate commentary, and it hampers creativity. Confrontation inspires thought, censorship of expression promotes creative-laziness. Hey, why should Neo make an attempt at making his "conversions" remotely accurate if all he gets is praise from the people that like over-powered everything while those who would disagree are silenced or sent packing because they don't share the group mentality? I asked if there will be updates to his old conversions once Green Ronin announces/releases the mysterious book that Neo has referenced, which is a perectly valid question regardless of my abrasive nature seeing as how Neo himself admitted that he wouldn't do some characters the same way now that he's got updated information. Of course, I was told that if I can't join the crowd and like 'em as they are, I can just go elsewhere... and I've been called a troll for disagreeing --and backing up my disagreements thoughtfully and with logic-- with popular opinion.

So maybe it would be better to try to make a fresh start. Neo supplied you with the information you asked concerning Venom. If you still disagree, then why not post your conversion and cite the references behind them? No one is perfect and Neo has admitted to erring in the past. Perhaps your conversion covers something that was missed or cites a source that Neo does not have access to. I (and I'm sure others) would be interested in seeing what you have to offer as a comparison just to see what another's take on the character would be. So what about it? Care to try it again on a different tack?

Yes, he did cite the information I requested... and even though it is a comic I sadly do not have access to --nor have I ever read it, I've stopped complaining specifically about his conversions and have since only been wrapping up my defense of my statements to the people who think I'm a troll and attacking everyone including a moderator.

As for conversions of my own, I've already stated that I will be doing that as Neo's are too strong for me, and I never expressed an interest in low Power Level conversions... all I've been looking for were accurate conversions representing the average ideal of a given character. Neo's interpretations, as he's now explained and I understand, are often based on single incidences of one writer's creative license to exagerate abilities for the sake of story and chart the character's abilities based on the most extreme moments of a character's portrayal. Got it. Don't agree with it, but got it.

Now... everybody toughen up, because when I go back to my regular D&D gaming, I'll more than likely be popping up in appropriate threads to question and criticize other ideas. Don't take offense, think of defending your ideas as an opportunity to broaden your creative skills.

 

[Darkness]

Thrudjelmer,

Semantics aside, I've already explained what I expect of our members: Being polite toward and respectful of others. That's all I'm asking for, really.

 

[Thrudjelmer]

If you say so, but I still don't think doubting the credibility of one's conversions or pointing out a glaring error of general fact is disrespectful... it may be critical, but I never resorted to insulting statements as at least one of your regulars has. I also have not accused anyone else of being fanboys of Neo's efforts or otherwised trivialized their opinions or right to have an opinion differing from my own.

I was critical of his work, but everyone else attacked me for it.
Who is the troll? Not I.

As for being polite... I'm sorry, but I really don't think that saying "I'm sorry, but I really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really disagree with your assessment of various character's Strength scores. I think you are too generous with your figures. Please explain how you arrived at the numbers." The statement lacks emphasis on why I disagree, and he would, as he has, simply explain that the Power Points add up correctly. There is no creative exchange of ideas because no thoughts are provoked. The moment I explain, regardless of how polite that I believe he is wrong, then it becomes and issue of your opinion/my opinion regardless of fact. Then we all get warned to settle down and we continue to pointlessly exchange niceties in an uninspiring fashion which serves to accomplish nothing... in fact, it would undermine my respect for him for not being able to defend his creative license. And then I would have to use expletives through email to avoid a language filter, and I would get accused of harrassment, and its a no-win situation either way.

More to the point, I would also have any respect for the forums themselves yanked out from under me for being forced to pretend to sugar-coat a basic, non-insulting (unless you're over-sensitive) statement and/or question.

Face it, Darkness... too much enforced niceness breeds contempt. Not to be political or anything, but take racism for example: Where does it thrive? Where its not seen. You have to shine a light on it so everyone can identify who the jerks are to truly move towards eliminating such thoughts, because if such people can be identified, they can be ostracized for their thoughts. Of course, in our overly politically correct society, racism isn't being eliminated or even combatted... its simply being forced to learn how to hate in a more clever fashion.

 

[Neo]

If you say so, but I still don't think doubting the credibility of one's conversions or pointing out a glaring error of general fact is disrespectful... it may be critical, but I never resorted to insulting statements as at least one of your regulars has. I also have not accused anyone else of being fanboys of Neo's efforts or otherwised trivialized their opinions or right to have an opinion differing from my own.

I was critical of his work, but everyone else attacked me for it.
Who is the troll? Not I.

Except they arent glaring errors, they're based on specific instance,s I've even cited the damn comics your main point of contention arose from.. and yet you still keep repeating the same ill conceived, poorly informed rhetoric... the conversions aren't misconcieved, overpowered, glaringly incorrect or any other label you deem to give them and everyone else gets that. you insulted me, my work and my site you had absolutely no references or specific facts to back up your out of order claims except your own unsupported opinion.

Noone else agrees or agreeed with you and for that you label them Fanboys, which shows not only a lack of maturity but an inability to accept your arguments defeat graciously and move along. How are people not sharing your "singular" unsupported opinon being Fanboys? are people not entitled to say they like something because they do? Or are you the only one who is allowed that right now?

your only success thus far, is the that of a troll, you've turned a thread everyone who was viewing it and interacting on it has been enjoying up till now into a farce with endless streams of your own dismissive opinons and claims that everyone else is wrong and your right. You've even tried to be superior to the moderator when he asks you to give it a rest...Thrudjelmer what do you want? seriously? we dont agree, and noone else is going to agree with you either. As Ghostwind rightly pointed out, when one person disagree it may just be down to personal opinion, but when everyone disagrees you just need to accept that maybe your not right and move along.
Heck is this how you get through each day by arguing obsessively with anyone who doesnt hold your viewpoint until they do? You need to realise you cannot force your opinion down everyones throats, life just doesnt work like that.

So seriously thrudjelmer, I've answered your questions, I've given you the references you wanted.. and you dont agree and are determined not to. this thread obviously has nothing of any interest to you, nor do I, or my site, and frankyl I couldn't be more pleased at that fact...so what more do you want in this thread?

At this rate your inability to engage some self control before you post is just going to get you banned and believe it or not I don't want that..I can actually live with the fact we dont agree. But as I pointed out in my first reply to you I have absolutely no desire to continuously restate our own opinions ad infinitum as it serves no purpose at all.

If you have a conversion you want doing or you want to post your own fine, otherwise move along.

 

[Darkness]

Thrudjelmer,

I've now finished and sent my reply to your e-mail.
It should address most issues in sufficient detail. Let's use that medium to talk about this from here on instead of further cluttering up this thread. Thanks.

 

[Thrudjelmer]

Except they arent glaring errors, they're based on specific instance,s I've even cited the damn comics your main point of contention arose from.. and yet you still keep repeating the same ill conceived, poorly informed rhetoric... the conversions aren't misconcieved, overpowered, glaringly incorrect or any other label you deem to give them and everyone else gets that. you insulted me, my work and my site you had absolutely no references or specific facts to back up your out of order claims except your own unsupported opinion.

Well, I said I wasn't continuing our disagreement... but I also said that I wasn't going to finish defending my past statements. But, for the sake of validity: Venom, Marvel Super Heroes RPG, Strength: AM (50). My statement, which you even bothered to quote but apprently not read:
"pointing out a glaring error of general fact". General fact, not the instance you cited.

Noone else agrees or agreeed with you and for that you label them Fanboys, which shows not only a lack of maturity but an inability to accept your arguments defeat graciously and move along. How are people not sharing your "singular" unsupported opinon being Fanboys? are people not entitled to say they like something because they do? Or are you the only one who is allowed that right now?

Seriously, do you read all of what I'm typing, or do you see a whole lot of words and assume I'm insulting everyone because of a few out of context terms. Ban me if you choose, Darkness, but Neo quoted what I wrote:
"I also have not accused anyone else of being fanboys of Neo's efforts or otherwised trivialized their opinions or right to have an opinion differing from my own." I specifically say that I have not called anyone a fanboy, yet you shoot yer yap off about me lacking maturity and how I'm not allowing anyone to say they like something when it reads right there that I don't deny anyone's right to an opinion... all I'm saying is, just because the majority in this thread is on your bandwagon is not a license to enforce the same opinion on me. READ IT, and if you cannot understand it, get a 5th grader to explain it to you!! You have got to be kidding me! You can't be so unintelligent as to quote me on something and extrapolate the exact opposite meaning from it! And if I have to be warned or banned for calling you stupid because of that, THEN SO BE IT! 'cause you've got to be the dumbest person I've met online to not understand that!

your only success thus far, is the that of a troll, you've turned a thread everyone who was viewing it and interacting on it has been enjoying up till now into a farce with endless streams of your own dismissive opinons and claims that everyone else is wrong and your right.

I am right, and everyone else is entitled to their opinion. I am right because all I claimed is that your gross misrepresentation differs from general fact! You and everyone else demand that your opinions are right because of the one rather obscure comic book reference. FINE!! I gave it to you... and then I went on to defend my past statements, not to continue to insist that you fix your character interpretation, but only to point out that I am not WRONG just because I choose to look at the commonly accepted facts as opposed to a single exagerated incident.

You've even tried to be superior to the moderator when he asks you to give it a rest...

No, get it right, I was superior to the moderator. He clearly told me I could criticize you, then illustrated "criticism" with a completely non-critical example. That's not semantics, that's not a matter of opinion! He either used the wrong word or had no clue what he was talking about, but was hoping that I would get a clue from his totally contradictory statement!

Thrudjelmer what do you want? seriously?

Take down your website. I know you won't and don't expect you to, but at this point, that's what I really want because you've demonstrated a clear inability to READ... let alone create relatively accurate character conversions, which was what I originally was seeking.

we dont agree, and noone else is going to agree with you either.

Of course, not, because everyone is being petty and treating me like a troll because I argued with the great Neo who makes their lives wonderful by devoting his time and efforts to creating over-powered character "conversions" of the heroes they want to see... and when someone is biased like that, of course they'll think the over-powered nature is perfectly acceptable.

As Ghostwind rightly pointed out, when one person disagree it may just be down to personal opinion, but when everyone disagrees you just need to accept that maybe your not right and move along.

Yeah, consider me moving along. If the inarticulate, reading-deficient posters in this thread are any indication of EN World, I'd better find another forum where INTELLIGENT debate and CREATIVE thought is encouraged more than phony politeness and nicey-nice B.S.

Heck is this how you get through each day by arguing obsessively with anyone who doesnt hold your viewpoint until they do? You need to realise you cannot force your opinion down everyones throats, life just doesnt work like that.

No, not at all. In fact, dumbarse, when I have been wrong in this very thread, I admitted my mistake when it was pointed out to me and moved on. You're and the others are defending your opinions as right, when opinions cannot be right or wrong. And NO, you can't opinionate a fact into something more in line with what you desire... when you change a fact, you become WRONG. Accept it, learn it... live it!

So seriously thrudjelmer, I've answered your questions, I've given you the references you wanted.. and you dont agree and are determined not to. this thread obviously has nothing of any interest to you, nor do I, or my site, and frankyl I couldn't be more pleased at that fact...so what more do you want in this thread?

Nothing... I think I've made it perfectly clear that I'm done here since you all are going to interpret what I write in the worst possible way when its clearly apparent to anyone with half a brain that you (collectively) don't even read all of what I say, if any of it really!

At this rate your inability to engage some self control before you post is just going to get you banned and believe it or not I don't want that..I can actually live with the fact we dont agree. But as I pointed out in my first reply to you I have absolutely no desire to continuously restate our own opinions ad infinitum as it serves no purpose at all.

No, at this point, I just don't give a big steaming pile about getting banned. I'm rather blunt, so you paint me with your big "No, YOU'RE WRONG!" brush. I tried explaining my position on why I argued the arguments I made, and you got them friggin' BACKWARDS! Where's your brain at, dude?

If you have a conversion you want doing or you want to post your own fine, otherwise move along.

I haven't had time to put enough thought into it... I've been far too busy fending off everyone's inflametory statements and correcting the moderator's inability to explain criticism. That takes a lot of effort... but apparently, its all wasted because NONE OF YOU READ VERY WELL! Including the moderator!! I have to assume that you don't read well, because the only other explanation is that you're too lazy to read full sentences with WHOLE WORDS, and no convient smilie icons to attach emotion to statements where none should be needed!! And besides, at this point, there is no smilie present that adequately conveys the true intent of my words!

 

[Thrudjelmer]

let alone create relatively accurate character conversions, which was what I originally was seeking.

Point of fact, before this gets blown out of proportion also:
I said ACCURATE... not low-powered, not high-powered... just accurate.
As far as accuracy goes, your efforts earn you an 'F'. You get an 'A' for popularity, though!

Still, just because everyone present is against me and for you does not make you right.

And with that, aloha!

 

[el-remmen]

Who do you think would win in a fight, Tarzan or Flash Gordon?

 

[billd91]

Funny thing about life. If everyone around you seems crazy but are all interacting normally, then maybe it's you who are the crazy one.

But anyway. If Flash Gordon has range in the fight, his superior technology will win the day. But right in close, I'm betting on Tarzan's jungle-raised thews to carry him through to the finals.