Mass Effect 3 (SPOILERS!)

[Remus Lupin]

Yes, if you examine any fictional creation enough, you'll find holes. And the more well thought through and sophisticated the fiction, the harder the holes will be to find. the problem with the ME3 ending is that the holes are OBVIOUS and GLARING, and that's why people have so many problems with them.

As for filling in with your imagination, that's a very generous take you have on the failure of the creators to come up with a satisfying conclusion. But the fact that you can imagine some marginally plausible reason for the ending to make sense is not the same thing as the ending making sense. It just means that you're willing to give the creators a very, very large chuck of the benefit of the doubt.

It shouldn't surprise you that a lot of others, who have invested just as much time (and money) in this game as you have, aren't as willing to give the creators that much of the benefit of the doubt, and would like it if the story had wrapped up in a narratively more satisfying and self-consistent way, rather than me having to imagine how it WOULD have wrapped up IF it had been narratively satisfying and consistent.

Again, I'm happy for you that you were satisfied by the ending. It doesn't make those of us who aren't wrong for not being so.

But hey, just as long as you feel like you "won" something ...

 

[Kzach]

It just means that you're willing to give the creators a very, very large chuck of the benefit of the doubt.

Hardly. You said yourself that you've seen how scathing I can be. I'm very critical of everything I view because that's the way I was raised. I was raised as a fully fledged member of the Skeptics Society and personally met James Randi before I was ten.

On top of that, I was aware of people's criticisms of the ending before I experienced it for myself so I was forced out of my suspension of disbelief (which is why I was pissed at it and considered it a spoiler) and so instead of enjoying the moment in blissful ignorance, was hyper critical and aware of every flaw.

I just didn't come to the same conclusions that you did. In my analysis of the ending, I don't find the flaws that you do because I feel they are easily answered and justified within the established fiction of the milieu. Nothing 'jarred'. It all made enough sense that I wasn't left thinking, "Geez, that sucked, they really screwed that up!"

To understand why people have the reactions they do, I believe one has to understand the psychology behind them and in this instance I believe that people don't like the endings not because the endings themselves are illogical or unreasonable, but because they are simply not the endings that people want or expected.

But that's ok. The developers have already announced that they're going to give everyone their fluffy-bunny endings through a DLC. So really, everybody wins.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Kzach, and I'm fine with the fact that we came to different conclusions. As I said initially, at first glance, I actually enjoyed the ending. It was only on reflection that I said, "wait, that didn't make much sense."

I'm totally comfortable with the idea that you genuinely enjoyed the conclusion more than I did and didn't feel the same need to pick at the conclusion. But it sure seemed to me that you were staking out a position that those who criticized the ending were out of line ("butt-hurt" I believe was your phrase), and should just accept it without complaining. But if I'm going to take Mass Effect seriously as the piece of art that I think it is, then I have an obligation to criticize it in the same way I would criticize any other work of art, out of a sense of admiration, and a recognition of what it could have been. It's what led me to be disappointed with the epilogue of Harry Potter and the Star Wars prequel trilogy as well. If I didn't like them so much, I wouldn't have been annoyed at their last minute (or larger) fumbles.

If I was expecting crap, then I would have been thrilled to get what I got, because it was genuinely decent on many levels. But I had been led to expect inspiration, and that's not what the ending gave us, or at least me.

 

[Kzach]

But I had been led to expect inspiration, and that's not what the ending gave us, or at least me.

I think this is the most pertinent point.

You infer, and at one point even state, that I didn't critique the game or the ending. And that your view that it is a crap ending that is OBVIOUSLY and GLARINGLY poor is the only view.

What I'm stating is that I did, in fact, critically examine the ending and I came to a different conclusion. I do not think the ending is flawed or that there are plot holes in it. I definitely don't think it's obviously or glaringly poor, either. I think it was well executed.

You didn't get what you expected or wanted out of the ending. And because of that, you find flaw in it. I think, when examined dispassionately and objectively that there isn't, in fact, flaw in it. And from that, I think that the real issue is that you were disappointed and unsatisfied with the ending, which is fine and you have every right to feel that way. What I take issue with is that you're effectively stating that it's a foregone conclusion and the only 'right' conclusion to come to that there are flaws and plot holes in the ending.

Many people might agree with you, but that doesn't make the position right, it just makes it popular.

 

[Remus Lupin]

Kzach, I'll make a deal with you, if you'll stop minimizing my concerns as "you just didn't get what you want" then I'll take your endorsement of the ending more seriously, but you're clearly not hearing me if you think that's what I'm saying.

And, to make this crystal clear, I didn't think it was a crap ending. I said that if I'd expected a crap ending, I would have been thrilled, because the actual ending WASN'T crap. I didn't say that it was OBVIOUSLY and GLARNGLY poor, I said that it had OBVIOUS AND GLARING holes, which is not the same thing.

You found the ending satisfying, I get that. I think we all get that. But for many of us it wasn't, and I for one would like to explore ways that it could have been improved, and aspects that I would have liked to see better developed. Is it possible for that conversation to take place without you saying over and over again that there was nothing wrong with the ending, or shall we just take that as read?

 

[Kzach]

I didn't say that it was OBVIOUSLY and GLARNGLY poor, I said that it had OBVIOUS AND GLARING holes, which is not the same thing.

If you add, "In my opinion," to that statement, I'll be happy and leave the argument alone. But stating that it has obvious and glaring holes is exactly the same as saying it's poorly executed. It's also saying that your conclusion is the only conclusion that can be had. If you qualify it with, "In my opinion," then you allow for other opinions to be had.

 

[Remus Lupin]

It's obviously my opinion. I'm the one offering it.

 

[JohnRTroy]

Overall, this installment was great, hit all my levels of emotion, and the combat is satisfying, and so is the multiplayer.

Regarding the ending, I did feel the non-sequitur of the Normandy was the hardest thing to accept, which makes me wonder if things will be clarified with DLC.

I had no problem with the "final choice", as I think leaving that one away from Paragon/Renegade choice and blurring the lines makes for a better experience. Not everything can be set in that somewhat simplistic moral system.

The only thing that saddens me is the fan reaction, as I think it is way out of proportion, and I hope Bioware doesn't suddenly cave into pressure to create a "happy ending". (Some say that's not what they want, but I see others saying that elsewhere, so the movement isn't unified).

I think a lot of it is spillover from anger towards Bioware. Some are still bitter they never did a BG3, others dislike the direction of RPGs in general. But some of this is coming from recent changes--EA marketing can really stink, and I feel they rushed DA2 out the door, and the DLC and exclusive content stuff (in the whole industry) is getting out of hand.

Definately worth my money, and I would suggest for those on the fence--if you liked the first 2, get it, enjoy it.

 

[Piratecat]

It's obviously my opinion. I'm the one offering it.

Nah, with respect, that's not valid rhetoric. If you don't qualify a controversial point with "in my opinion," on the Internet it's often interpreted as you claiming that it's universal and unvarnished truth. That starts a crap-ton of misunderstandings and arguments.

Consider an extreme example:

A: "Tomb of Horrors was a poorly designed adventure, and anyone who likes it is a dumbass."
B: "I think Tomb of Horrors was a poorly designed adventure, and in my opinion anyone who likes it is a dumbass."

I can argue the first point ad nauseum. I can't really argue the second one at all, even if I disagree with it.

 

[Remus Lupin]

PC, but I think you make my point. The position that I'm taking is one that can be argued ad nauseum in a productive way, whether or not I explicitly qualify it with the phrase, "in m opinion." in fact using the phrase "in my opinion," make the argument about my opinion, rather than the game, which is what I'd like to be discussing. But if I take a position about the game, it's always implicitly my opinion, And the question is whether or not it's well grounded, which I tried to do up thread, and others have also attempted.

But look, I don't want to make a federal case out of it. My only point was that it's absolutely possible for Kzach to be satisfied with the ending for defensible reasons, and me to be dissatisfied for defensible reasons.