D&D 5E Math Question: Removing PB and its effect on saves?

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
'sup,

So, say I removed proficiency bonus from the game. Everything is just an ability roll.

Do the saving throws against a DC still work?

Like, an Archmage, a spellcaster of 18th level, will have a spell DC of 13 (8 base + 5 int) and a spell attack bonus of +5. Would he still be able to land a spell?

(in this version, I dont have ASI at every 4 levels. So power boost would come from magic items and consumables, and working with the team to gain advantages. So +5 to a saving throw from a player would be somewhat rare, at least).

Which should be the base number to add to an ability bonus to generate a spell DC? 8 as usual, 9-10?
 

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DND_Reborn

Legend
As long as proficiency is being removed on all sides it should work fine. It might take some tweaking of other things as well. For example, I often take Resilience for WIS saves for my Fighters, whose Wisdom is usually only +1 at best. Without the proficiency bonus added in there is really no reason to take the feat for them.

FWIW, I went the other route, giving the proficiency bonus to all creatures for all saves. :)
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
As long as proficiency is being removed on all sides it should work fine. It might take some tweaking of other things as well. For example, I often take Resilience for WIS saves for my Fighters, whose Wisdom is usually only +1 at best. Without the proficiency bonus added in there is really no reason to take the feat for them.

FWIW, I went the other route, giving the proficiency bonus to all creatures for all saves. :)
Yeah, we dont play with feat or multiclass, so at least this is something I dont have to keep in mind (and using feats as class features is a good way to avoid losing some good stuff).
 

The mage would have to be more selective in what save they target.

I had a high level fighter (I think 13th or 14th level) who would laugh off Fortitude (well, Constitution) saves against that DC (not entirely laugh off, since he wouldn't enjoy his proficiency bonus to Con saves but would have a pretty good chance of being unaffected) but would still be devastated if you targeted his Wisdom with a save DC that high. I think the ability score-based disparity in saving throws is a bigger issue than the proficiency bonus system.

I wouldn't remove proficiency bonuses. D&D 5e still has levels, and characters get more skilled and more competent as they gain levels. Otherwise gaining levels starts to look like you're gaining hit points and that's it.
 

DND_Reborn

Legend
Yeah, we dont play with feat or multiclass, so at least this is something I dont have to keep in mind (and using feats as class features is a good way to avoid losing some good stuff).
Fair enough. :)

I wouldn't remove proficiency bonuses. D&D 5e still has levels, and characters get more skilled and more competent as they gain levels. Otherwise gaining levels starts to look like you're gaining hit points and that's it.
Agreed. This is why I went the other way and made all creatures and PCs proficient in all saves. It reflects that with experience you should get better at these naturally IMO. At one point I went with half proficiency bonus to non-proficient saves, but it was simpler to just do proficiency for all saves and add "focus" to the prior proficient saves, giving them a further +3 flat bonus.
 

vincegetorix

Jewel of the North
I wouldn't remove proficiency bonuses. D&D 5e still has levels, and characters get more skilled and more competent as they gain levels. Otherwise gaining levels starts to look like you're gaining hit points and that's it.

Hopefully this will be compensated by the fact that my revamped of classes gives most of the class/subclass features at 1st level and character gain more use by gaining levels.

I'll also push for downtime trainings, for those who would like to gain skill trainings or gain magical boosts by finding magical loot.

But yeah, the idea is to have flatter maths and have the players focus on progressing their character in-game and not on their character sheet.

Anyway, I think its worth trying, at least.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
This will generally make save DCs easier to beat.

In baseline 5e prof adds to DCs, but only some saving throws. Smart casters could pick a resist the target likely lacks proficiency in to penetrate defences.

It is roughly equivalent to giving every creature proficiency in every saving throw.

In addition, higher CR monsters will be slightly less dangerous, and lower slightly moreso.

Fighty types will be slightly less effective as they gain level, and everyone becomes more durable against weapon attacks, compared to baseline 5e.
 



HammerMan

Legend
Agreed. This is why I went the other way and made all creatures and PCs proficient in all saves. It reflects that with experience you should get better at these naturally IMO. At one point I went with half proficiency bonus to non-proficient saves, but it was simpler to just do proficiency for all saves and add "focus" to the prior proficient saves, giving them a further +3 flat bonus.
I liked the 4e base idea (+X for prof and 1/2 level) but I also like the base idea of 5e (smaller numbers). I would love for a retroclone to mix both.
all saves checks attacks AC and skills go up at 5th,10th,15th,20th (ect for epic levels) by 1. prof is +2 with an additional +1 at 11th (and 21st 32st ect for epic levels)

compared to now you end up pretty close for prof bonus (+2 until 5th when it goes upto +3 then at 10th it is +4 and 11th +5 then 15th +6 and 20th +7) just slightly higher at 11+ levels but things you are not prof in kinda try to keep up (especially important with saves) (+1 5th +2 10th +3 15th and +4 20th) . In theory even a 20th level character having +4 AC Non prof skills attacks and ability checks just shows that over 20 levels you have picked up a bit of everything... while the +4 to non prof saves helps avoid the "You aren't ever making your bad saves" that in theory would still be at +3 only (and as such anything above dc12 is still 50/50 for you). Now to make this work best I have the idea of front loading HP but overall giving less...

but again I am not a game designer. I am sure many people on these boards can take that idea and polish it to be much better.
 

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