D&D General Matt Colville: "50 years later we're still arguing about what D&D even is!"

[ezo]

You can't play D&D with badwrongstyle--you might corrupt it somehow, might in some unexplained (and probably inexplicable) way take away what others enjoy just because you got a new thing you enjoy.

Even worse--you might corrupt some new player into thinking what you are doing is okay!

 

[mamba]

I mean, it would really help if we didn't have to spend 20+ years having a knock-down, drag-out, vicious barroom brawl every time a new concept or archetype gets put into the game and half the folks who played before that archetype was added can't stand it and work to drive it out as much as they possibly can.

if you are talking about a new class then yes, who cares, it basically is optional. If you talk about some more central change to the game, that is different however, then it probably isn’t optional

 

[EzekielRaiden]

if you are talking about a new class then yes, who cares, it basically is optional. If you talk about some more central change to the game, that is different however, then it probably isn’t optional

Classes and races, mostly. People don't tend to be quite as fixated on most mechanics, other than the six stats and modifiers. But even there, the game transitioned from roll-under on many things to universal roll over and that didn't really cause a torches and pitchforks response the way the addition of classes or races does.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Classes and races, mostly. People don't tend to be quite as fixated on most mechanics, other than the six stats and modifiers. But even there, the game transitioned from roll-under on many things to universal roll over and that didn't really cause a torches and pitchforks response the way the addition of classes or races does.

Perceived cultural changes speak to people's self-identity in a way that the comeliness stat does not.

("If I play a game that checks some boxes for furries or scalies" -- whether or not said furries or scalies actually think so -- "does that mean I'm a furry now?")

 

[el-remmen]

(what a terrible title that is)

Yeah. I agree. And while the content is some of the most interesting, I do think it is some of Peterson’s worst writing and it needs a new version like “Playing at the World” is apparently getting (got?). I think his analysis is always great but his writing has gotten better.

 

[Oofta]

For those of us who don't have an hour to listen, is there a synopsis?

Because as far as I'm concerned ... D&D has always been largely what the group makes it. We have a few different options than we used to, there's been a slow evolution of the rules, but the part that really matters to me is the characters we make and campaigns the DM runs. The rules? Those are just in place to enable all the action and overall those have improved over the years for me.

 

[Bedrockgames]

But even there, the game transitioned from roll-under on many things to universal roll over and that didn't really cause a torches and pitchforks response the way the addition of classes or races does.

I played 3E through its full duration and beyond, but this really was one change, all the other arguments about flavor and meaning aside, that I felt negatively impacted gameplay for me. It was not simply shifting from rolling under (though I like the feel of that and the intuitive nature of it), it was the shift to these largely uncapped bonuses and target numbers that changed how the scaling worked

 

[Staffan]

For those of us who don't have an hour to listen, is there a synopsis?

Basic synopsis: early (pre-Advanced) D&D was not so much a game as a bunch of ideas, not including such basic things as actually telling you how to play the game. This lead to fertile ground for discussion in various zines, notably Alarums & Excursions and Different Worlds, where many later game design luminaries like Gregs Stafford and Costikyan as well as Steve Perrin cut their game design teeth. One of the main reasons for AD&D (in addition to being enabling Gygax to take sole credit) was to turn it into an actual game. To a large degree, many of the rules of AD&D were not really used by Gygax himself, but were mainly included to cut off avenues for competition. There's a whole bunch of stuff of this in "The Elusive Shift", which Matt thinks you should read.

 

[BookTenTiger]

I wonder if this is much different than other hobbies or media. I know in the world of literature there's constant debate and shifting definitions about what "literature" even is, compared to "fiction" or "genre fiction." (I'm of the opinion it's all literature.) Never mind "young adult fiction"!

I think every media is always in the middle of an argument about how it's defined. D&D is an interesting case, though, because it's both one single RPG among many, and yet also eponymous of the entire genre.

 

[Hussar]

It’s not even just the shifts in classes and races.

Look at the ENDLESS fighting about art. That’s been going on on for as long as I remember. I mean back in the 3e days it was all “this is anime art!!!!!?!??!” And even after facts get released nothing changes.

I remember discussing warforged and being told the proportions are taken from Full Metal Alchemist. So I made a graphic of a warforged, the character from FMA, and C3-PO.

The warforged lined up exactly with C3-P0. Right down to having that little round thing or on his chest. The warforged was identical to Threepio. Just beefier and palette swapped.

But facts don’t matter in these discussions. Like ever.