Maximize Spell + Flame Blade = Full damage every hit?

[Sejs]

You mean like the way fireball creates "a ball of fire" and therefore has no "variable, numeric effects" to maximize?

Flame Blade creates fire with variable damage in the shape of a blade with a non-instantaneous duration. Fireball creates fire with variable damage in the shape of a ball with instantaneous duration. Since Maximize cares neither for shape nor duration, it works on Flame Blade.

Patryn's talking quantified terms. When he says Effect in regards to Flame Blade, he's talking about the presence or absence of an Effect line in the spell's entry, rather than talking in general terms about 'what the spell does'.

Taking a note from a previous discussion on a similar matter, the difference is similar to that between two spells, one which creates a small ammount of fire versus a spell that creates a match. The end result of both spells is the same, however only one spell actually creates fire in and of itself.

The problem is that the variable numeric effects that the spell Flame Blade creates are one step removed from the actual casting of the spell itself. If I cast Fireball, the spell itself does damage, whereas if I cast Flame Blade the spell itself creates a beam of fire, which I can then use as a weapon to inflict damage. If the argument is that Maximize Spell works on all numeric variables associated with the spell no matter how many steps removed they are, it essentially would allow things such as Fabricate making longswords that always do max damage, Summon Monster spells that get critters with max hp per hit die, always strike for max damage, always get a 20 on their to-hit rolls and saving throws, Awaken spells that give the awakened creature max stats and so on. An ugly proposition, to say the least.

 

[andargor]

It would.

Ok, what about a maximized flaming sphere?

(I'm enjoying this... )

Andargor

 

[Kurotowa]

I think 18 points every hit is better than it sounds actually, compare it to average rolls for damage dice. Does 2d12+11 sound more respectable? Its the same average.

It does sound more respectable, but it isn't the same average. AFAIK the average result of 2d12+11 would be 24. To get 18 it would be 2d6+11 or 2d12+5. And even that isn't a fair comparison, because nearly half the time you'll be doing more than 18 damage.

 

[Sejs]

Ok, what about a maximized flaming sphere?

(I'm enjoying this... )

Andargor

Heh, saw that one coming.

Effect: 5-ft.-diameter sphere

So following the above Effect/Steps of Removal logic, no dice.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I would argue that a damage die that's defined in the spell text is eligible for Maximization, but one that is defined elsewhere (like in a monster's stat block) is not.

Maximized Summon Monster has no effect on the damage, attack rolls, saving throws, etc made by a Celestial Badger.

Nor would the feat have an effect on the attack rolls or saving throws of Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound. But the damage dealt by the Hound's attack is defined in the spell description; 2d6+3 is a variable numeric effect of the spell.

I can't see how the Hound is to be treated differently to Melf's Acid Arrow.

I'd treat Spiritual Weapon, Flame Blade, Produce Flame, Flaming Sphere, Orb of Electricity, and 3E Shillelagh in the same way - the damage is Maximized.

3.5 Shillelagh is described differently; instead of causing the club to deal 1d10 damage, it deals damage as if two sizes larger. The numbers are contained in the spell text, but as clarification rather than definition, and I'd therefore rule the damage unaffected by Maximize Spell.

-Hyp.

 

[andargor]

Ok, I think I get the Patryn's and Sejs' objection.

Personally, I think it is the confusion between the "Effect" line in the description of the spell, and the "spell's effect" which is synonymous the "the spell's result".

Aiming A Spell
...
Effect: Some spells create or summon things rather than affecting things that are already present.
...

The Spell's Result
...
Special Spell Effects
...
Many special spell effects are handled according to the school of the spells in question Certain other special spell features are found across spell schools.

Note the difference, although both use "effect".

So reading the following has different meanings depending on interpretation:

Maximize Spell [Metamagic]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized.

Personally, I think effect reflects the spell's result, and not whether a particular spell has an aiming entry of "Effect".

An added complication of your interpretation is having to draw lists of spells that may or may not be maximized. Your life gets complicated unnecessarily, methinks.

Andargor

EDITS: Typos only.

 

[Sejs]

I would argue that a damage die that's defined in the spell text is eligible for Maximization, but one that is defined elsewhere (like in a monster's stat block) is not.

An interesting approach, and one to considder.

Question, then: Maximized Awaken?

 

[andargor]

An interesting approach, and one to considder.

Question, then: Maximized Awaken?

18 Int, +3 Cha.

On a personal note, I wouldn't mind this IMC if cast as an 8th level spell...

Andargor

 

[Hypersmurf]

An interesting approach, and one to considder.

Question, then: Maximized Awaken?

Don't forget the Rod of Empower Spell.

Although it's not as much fun as doing the same thing with 3E Simulacrum.

-Hyp.

 

[Errant]

It does sound more respectable, but it isn't the same average. AFAIK the average result of 2d12+11 would be 24. To get 18 it would be 2d6+11 or 2d12+5. And even that isn't a fair comparison, because nearly half the time you'll be doing more than 18 damage.

Oh yeah, dropped a number in my calculation. 18 is more like the average of 2d6+11 (I think). My bad. Still, I doubt many would be upset wielding a Greatsword with that kind of bonus, especially as a touch attack.

I think I'm most convinced by Hypersmurf's argument. It seems most logical, so that's the way I'll run it and the way I'll present it to DM's when I'm a player.

I was thinking the druid a pretty weak class without major reliance and specialization in Wildshaping. A (Sudden) Maximize Flame Blade once or twice a day gives me an alternative.