Maximizing Save DC's

Going back to Heighten Spell for a moment:

It would be useful to a Clr or Wiz for those spells that don't have a higher level equivalent, or even those that do, but you:
  • aren't high enough level to cast it yet, or
  • don't have that spell available; after all a Wiz's spell book isn't infinite.
For example, my PC (a Clr 9) woundn't mind being able to cast a heightened Bestow Curse or Discern Lie. ....I haven't taken the feat, you understand, but I've thought it over, at least. If my concept included casting high DC save or die spells at my enemies....well, I might just have taken it.

As it is.....I may just go shopping for a metamagic rod instead.
 
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Caliban said:
Ah, the old "anyone who disagrees with my viewpoint must be stupid" stance.

Well, I really don't care what else you have to say Marshall. Have a nice day.

My, my. Aren't we being sensitive?

If you took that as an insult to your intelligence, let me assure you, it was NOT my intention.

It doesnt, however, change the fact that taking a feat you wont benefit from for several levels is a sub-optimal if not sub-normal selection.
 

Marshall said:
My, my. Aren't we being sensitive?
No, I just don't have time to waste on you if you are going to debate like that. I enjoy a good discussion, but making veiled insults takes it out of that realm. I don't have any interest on debating someone who takes that attitude.

If you took that as an insult to your intelligence, let me assure you, it was NOT my intention.
Then why did you say it like that? Your choice of phrasing made it pretty clear that you were absolutely certain that you are right, and that anyone who disagrees with you is somehow impaired. A very close-minded viewpoint, and not one that invites honest debate. Instead it invites an exchange of insults, and since I'm very busy these days, I'll pass on that.

It doesnt, however, change the fact that taking a feat you wont benefit from for several levels is a sub-optimal if not sub-normal selection.
If you didn't actually gain any benefit for several levels, you might be right. Since that's not actually true in all cases, even by your own analysis, I have to disagree.
 
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Apok said:
In other words, under the new 3.5 rules, what is the maximum attainable Save DC? Feel free to put your powergaming/tweaking/smackdown building skillz to the test.

Using non-core WoTC material, this is the best i could come up with:
Human Sorceror 10/Exalted Arcanist 5/Archmage 5
Feats:
Lvl 1:Jinnbond (Djinni), - from the Greyhawk regional feats in Dragon 319 and gives you a +2 DC with Fire spells
Lvl 1: Purify Spell
Lvl 3: Consecrate Spell
Lvl 6: Spell Focus (good) from BoED +2 DC for good spells
Lvl 9: Spell Focus (Evoc) +1 DC for evocation
Lvl 12: Spell Focus (one other) or GSF (evoc) if the DM allows Spell Focus (good) to count for the Archmage requirements.
Lvl 15: skill focus (spellcraft)
Lvl 17: (not a feat) Mastery of Elements High Arcana
Lvl 18: Elemental focus (also from Dragon 319) +1 DC Fire spells or GSF (evoc) if you had to take a different SF at Lvl 12

DC from feats: +7 (+2 evoc, +2 good, + 3 fire)
Cha: 34 (start 18 +5 Inherent + 6 Enhancement + 5 level up) +12 DC
Total DC: 29+Spell level

How it works: The feats work together because purify or consecrate spell give the metamagicked spell the (good) descriptor, and they can be cast as a standard action as a class feature of the exalted arcanist, and lastly any damaging evocation spell can be changed to fire with the archmage ability.

So for any blasty energy evocation spell you can have a Save DC of 29+Spell level, by using a slot one level higher than normal and changing the energy type to fire, with the added bonus that half of the resulting damage will be divine and not subject to energy resistance (from consecrate spell).

It even sort of makes sense as a coherent character - a wielder of divine fire type of thing. Unfortunately, it only works for a Good Baklunish Sorceror.
 

Diirk said:
And from memory, the feat overview table listed 3.5 spellcasting prodigy as still giving the +1 DC, but if you read the feat description itself, it said it didn't. Copy and paste error.

Ah, that explains my confusion!


glass.
 

Marshall said:
Then why isn't Extra Slot taken?
Its useful, but the extra +2 STAT isnt likely to come into play often enough to matter.

Extra Slot isn't often taken for several reasons:
1. It always grants you a low-level spell slot (it can't give you a spell slot at your highest castable level).
2. It doesn't scale. If, at 6th level, you take extra slot and can cast another 2nd level spell, at 20th level, you'll have a feat that gives you an extra 2nd level spell.

Spellcasting Prodigy doesn't suffer from either limitation at high levels. Without an 18 (or better) casting stat, it doesn't do anything at first level, but a lot of builds can stand a wasted feat for a while. I've seen highly effective 14th level characters who have toughness (a wasted feat after third level or so) so, you can quite clearly be powerful and effective even without a full complement of feats. I've also seen effective characters with Combat Casting. Combat Casting contributes very little to their effectiveness but they do have it so, once again, perfectly optimized feats aren't necessary for a character to be viable.

I have no problem with my character being "viable" for several levels and before becoming "perfectly optimized."

You need an 18 stat at 1st level to get ANY benefit from the feat.

Or an 11. It's possible that a multiclass caster (who will not focus on spellcasting) in a low-stat game might select Spellcasting Prodigy in order to have ANY bonus spells.

I've considered the feat to give a 25 point buy paladin some spellcasting ability.

At 3rd you need a 20 - Possible if you had that 18 at first and found a +2 item.

Also possible if you are a race with a +2 caster stat bonus--Grey Elf in Greyhawk, or Ardakene in Arcanis for instance.

Again, you also benefit from it as a 3rd level caster if you've a 12 wis.

At 5th you need a 22 - +1 for fourth and a +2 item isnt going to cut it.

But the +2 item, an 18 starting stat, and a bonus race will do it.

Alternatively, a 14 starting stat benefits from it at 5th level. This is not unusual for low-point buy multiclass casters.

At 7th you need a 24 - likely got a +4 here and at 8th youll up your stat to get the ad outta it

Again, it's possible with a +2 race and a +2 item as well as the 8th level statbump.

The 14 stat character also benefits here since two stat bumps bring the character to 16 and spellcasting prodigy brings it to 18.

At 9th you need a 26 - gotta have that +6 item now

Or the +2 race. But that's boring.

What's interesting is that the 14 stat caster can pretty reliably have a +2 item by now. Total stat=20 (14+2 lvl+2 item+2 feat)

At 11+ you're stuck, you cant keep your stat up to the point where you have an advantage from the feat in your highest level slot.

Actually, the 14 starting stat character can keep on benefitting from the feat.
11. +4 item, +2 lvl, +2 feat=22 stat
13. +6 item, +3 lvl, +2 feat=25 stat
16. +6 item, +4 lvl, +2 feat=27 stat
At 17, a +1 inherent bonus would have the feat giving a bonus 9th level slot (as well as a bonus 4th level slot)
At 20, no inherent bonus is required (but obviously inherent bonusses are harder than usual to come by in a campaign where that is relevant).


What roleplaying? If you want to play a prodigy, play a prodigy. This feat has nothing to do with being a prodigy, and shouldnt have the "must take at 1st level" tag. Rename it Extra Spells, drop the tag, and then come back with a REAL ScP feat.

+1 CL, +1 to all DC's, Cast a spell in a lower slot, SOMETHING that actually resembles a PRODIGY.

Actually, I think the above analysis demonstrates that the feat does actually do a lot of good for a spellcaster with a middling to weak primary spellcasting stat--it enables him to perform as well as most characters that start with a significantly above average casting stat. It might be reasonable to call that a prodigy since the character doesn't otherwise have the capacity to support his spellcasting ability.
 
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Yeah, and quite true. Even though, being useful (even highly useful) for an extremely small minority doesn't make it a decent feat, or does it?

The scaling is its biggest advantage over Extra Slot, obviously, but the point was, that it will usually overscale (and you can't really prevent this from happening without restricting yourself).

That could be seen as an advantage in that you don't *have* to buy that headband of intellect +4 or +6, if you already have a lower version and SP let's you scale up to the point where you exactly get your bonus spell for your highest spell slot. You'll more often want to go for the DC, tho.

Anyways, all this still doesn't make SP seem in line with the other 1st level only feats (IMHO).

Bye
Thanee
 
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Thanee said:
Yeah, and quite true. Even though, being useful (even highly useful) for an extremely small minority doesn't make it a decent feat, or does it?

The scaling is its biggest advantage over Extra Slot, obviously, but the point was, that it will usually overscale (and you can't really prevent this from happening without restricting yourself).

That could be seen as an advantage in that you don't *have* to buy that headband of intellect +4 or +6, if you already have a lower version and SP let's you scale up to the point where you exactly get your bonus spell for your highest spell slot. You'll more often want to go for the DC, tho.

Anyways, all this still doesn't make SP seem in line with the other 1st level only feats (IMHO).

Bye
Thanee
It used to be on the high end of the power scale for a feat (perhaps too high, although I didn't think so), now it's below the middle of the power scale, except for a few character concepts that take advantage of it. Not all feats are created equal. Some are sub-par, except for specific character concepts. Usually it's on purpose, sometimes (as in this case) it's a side effect of errata.

Not every feat has to be uber.

Also, nothing stops you from taking Spellcasting Prodigy and Extra Slot together.
 
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Going back to Heighten Spell, I have to say it totally rocks for a sorcerer (having played from level 1 to 14 as one). This becomes especially true the more the sorcerer advances in levels. A heightened Slow spell can devastate a group of enemies, especially lumbering fighter-types which often have low will saves. Slowed creatures can take a single move action or standard action each turn, not both; they get -1 atk, ac, and reflex saves, AND move at half speed. Essentially this limits every enemy to a single attack! With multiple targets, the higher DC from Heighten Spell makes Slow wicked. I love it. I've used heighten with some of the other spells mentioned, but Slow has been by far the best use (in my opinion). Just wanted to toss that out there :D
 

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