May Daggermaster Nerf Rumour

[DracoSuave]

1. You can't be a Twin Striking Rogue

2. Even with a free basic it's still d4's

3. Rending weapons are axes only and you are not rolling d12's for crit damage because you are not using vicious which is the issue. Is that what you mean by rend?

1- Yes you can. Player's Handbook, Page 208. Sneak of Shadows feat. This is the cornerstone that makes most Daggermasters work.

2- The majority of damage from Twin Strike comes from Hunter's Quarry and static bonuses to damage such as Iron Armbands of Power, and enhancement bonuses. After those get factored in, the [W] portion of the damage doesn't even register.

3- He's talking about Two-Weapon Opening, a feat, not Rending Weapon.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm talking in generalities here. A daggermaster cannot wield d10 weapons to get their increased crit chance. The previous poster was talking about how twin strike isn't a problem with Daggermaster. I posited that I would think that a TS'ing rogue with 18-20 crit range and two weapon opening/rend (whatever the free attack one is called) + all the crit maximizing options doesn't really rely on his dice to put out the damage.

I know what you mean and that you are right.

It is just, if you read other threads, usually someone tells you that 1 point of average damage is the deciding factor that a combat which could be over in a few rounds lasts forever....

I just wanted to be the first to say it...^^

 

[You Go Katie.]

1- Yes you can. Player's Handbook, Page 208. Sneak of Shadows feat. This is the cornerstone that makes most Daggermasters work.

Sneak Attack damage. 1/encounter.

2- The majority of damage from Twin Strike comes from Hunter's Quarry and static bonuses to damage such as Iron Armbands of Power, and enhancement bonuses. After those get factored in, the [W] portion of the damage doesn't even register.

Since your argument is that Twin Strikes static damage bonus makes and breaks the build, look at the numbers.

Best case scenario.
+6 damage (Armbands of Power), Magic Dagger +6. Your average non-crit damage w/ Twin Strike w/ Quarry is somewhere around 31 damage. Without, 17. So roughly 48 since you get Quarry 1/round.

+6 damage (Armbands of Power), Magic Waraxe +6. Your Average non-crit damage w/ Twin Strike w/ Quarry is somewhere around 39 damage. Without, 25. So roughly 64/round.

Now shall we factor crit damage?

Dagger - 6 (Armbands), 6 (Enhancement), 8 (2d4 maxed), 14 (Quarry), 21 (6d6 Critical Property). For a grand total of 55.

Waraxe - 6 (Armbands), 6 (Enhancement), 24 (2d12 maxed), 14 (Quarry), 21 (High Crit) and 21 (6d6 Critical Property). Result is 92 .

You will THEORETICALLY crit on average 1/20 attacks with Twin Strike using Waraxes and 3/20 attacks with daggers.

Waraxe total damage through 20 attacks = 1244 (1 crit, 1 miss)

Dagger total damage through 20 attacks = 933 (3 crits, 1 miss)

This math is ASSUMING TYPICAL probability and only 10 Twin Strikes that all HIT (except for one miss). That is the average damage for 20 attack rolls per weapon. With a simulator running constantly daggers theoretically never out damage the waraxe.

If you really want to get kinky you can take a couple Staffs of Knives and get 6d12 critical property, but I'll just take a Vicious Waraxe.

Staff of Knives = 987
Vicious Waraxe = 1262

I hate to completely bust you here, but yes, [W] damage does matter, about 311 damage actually. Especially when you crit. The difference between average 5 with daggers and average 13 with axes is monstrous and 8-24 is just ridiculous. Even when daggers crit, they do not out damage a waraxes normal Twin Strike.

3- He's talking about Two-Weapon Opening, a feat, not Rending Weapon.

One could have easily assumed that's what he meant. Trolls, ftw.

So again, the real issue is not Rangers, but casters. Maxing implement attack damage is a bad bad bad thing. Since it's not based on a [W] damage, but on a static die. Rangers have a better option in Waraxes. Casters, don't.

Critting on anything but a natural 20 is a DnD sin imho. It should be nerfed to, Your attacks with daggers can now crit on 18 and 19 but only gain max WEAPON damage and cannot benifit from Critical Properties or chance on critical effects. Or just change the PP to say max WEAPON damage.

 

[renau1g]

Well you're also tossing away the +1 to hit with daggers over axes (+2 for a true half-elf rogue how takes the paragon feat to use TS at -will) , you're also not including any of the crit maximizing items/powers. And you're excluding the extra 2 attacks from the two-weapon opening.

 

[Mirtek]

In app. two weeks we'll see

 

[Mengu]

Err, I don't think twin striking ranger daggermasters are as much of a problem as twin striking half-elf (or revenant half-elf) rogue daggermasters.

The rogue daggermaster without twin strike gets 1 attack, and gets to add dex. The rogue daggermaster with twin strike gets 2 attacks, but doesn't add a stat to damage. That's 2 shots at applying the 3d8+4'ish sneak attack damage. The loss of dex from one of the attacks is insignificant in the grand scheme of increased probability to get a crit with 2 attacks. Considering all that sneak attack is maximized on a crit, and with two weapon opening you might even be getting another attack, the damage potential goes way up, compared to the rogue without twin strike.

I maintain that it's a good idea to limit the crit range to rogue powers and daggermaster PP powers.

 

[Istar]

Err, I don't think twin striking ranger daggermasters are as much of a problem as twin striking half-elf (or revenant half-elf) rogue daggermasters.

The rogue daggermaster without twin strike gets 1 attack, and gets to add dex. The rogue daggermaster with twin strike gets 2 attacks, but doesn't add a stat to damage. That's 2 shots at applying the 3d8+4'ish sneak attack damage. The loss of dex from one of the attacks is insignificant in the grand scheme of increased probability to get a crit with 2 attacks. Considering all that sneak attack is maximized on a crit, and with two weapon opening you might even be getting another attack, the damage potential goes way up, compared to the rogue without twin strike.

I maintain that it's a good idea to limit the crit range to rogue powers and daggermaster PP powers.

What would you do with a Half Elf Rogue who has gimped himself levels 1 thru 10 and just as he turns level 11 to start to shine as intended L11 to L21, and say thats around the time a nerf comes in, he is around level 8.
Option is to retire character and start afresh ?

How are players supposed to be plan development of their characters with such ongoing changing of powers and what you can and cant do.

Not saying this would ever happen to me
Just a what if scenario

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It is a lesson to learn: don´t gimp yourself for 10 levels.

 

[xXElaDriNDrizZztXx]

Well you're also tossing away the +1 to hit with daggers over axes (+2 for a true half-elf rogue how takes the paragon feat to use TS at -will) , you're also not including any of the crit maximizing items/powers.

Even with a crit dagger, the crit dagger gets out damaged by war axes on average by 7. You're flawd with thinking you always crit. You don't. Also, take into account unless there is a specific item or feat that applied only to daggers, it also will apply to axes making the axes always do more damage.

And you're excluding the extra 2 attacks from the two-weapon opening.

It's one free action melee basic not two. Melee basic is 6+6+7+d4 damage. On average is 24 damage (Generously) That'a also assuming you crit WITH your main hand. Look at Katies math, *ASSUME* with two weapon opening of the three times you crit, it was with your main hand so you obtain an off hand attack. So you add 72 damage to the total, 72+933=1,005. Waraxes still out damage daggers.

P.S. You can use two weapon opening with axes. Sure it may not be as effective, but you're always doing more damage.

 

[renau1g]

Yes but if it applies to all crits and you are critting on 18-20 vs 20 which one triggers more? Therefore which one would have the higher expected damage? If you are rolling 2 attacks at 18-20 you should approx crit every third round vs critting every ten rounds with regular crit range (assuming 2 attacks per round) so yeah critting three times as much, which triggers the extra attack a few extra times, plus maxing HQ or SA damage and a bunch of other fun stuff out there.

Oh and to the person who said what to do if a PC is deliberately gimping himself? Well, let him stay gimped, he was going for a broken combo and if that was his intention too bad so sad, just like the OoI abusers and RRoT users in the past. It happens. If you really don't want to see that happen, play with the rules as you want them and let him have the higher crit range.