renau1g
First Post
Here's a real quick analysis of a half-elf rogue/daggermaster, spamming TS
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May Daggermaster Nerf Rumour
- Thread starter Istar
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What would you do with a Half Elf Rogue who has gimped himself levels 1 thru 10 and just as he turns level 11 to start to shine as intended L11 to L21, and say thats around the time a nerf comes in, he is around level 8.
Option is to retire character and start afresh ?
How are players supposed to be plan development of their characters with such ongoing changing of powers and what you can and cant do.
Not saying this would ever happen to me
Just a what if scenario
The game needs to work at all levels. It's not uncommon to see games starting at paragon levels (for instance that's how we started Revenge of the Giants). So the fact that a half-elf may be slightly gimped at heroic levels is not sufficient reason to have their power go up that significantly at level 11.
And a half-elf rogue is still quite playable through heroic. You can still use twin strike as an encounter power, which isn't bad. In an LFR game, you can virtually rebuild a character entirely at every level. So you can play as an AD rogue through heroic, and become a BS rogue at paragon if you want, change around your stats, etc. Twin strike suddenly loses the crit threat of daggermaster? Not a problem. It is still a good power with a great shot at applying sneak attack damage.
The nerf isn't really that big of a nerf, it just takes a holy cow combo down to really good. Twin Strike remains one of the best at-will striker powers in the game.
Not that the twin striking half-elf daggermaster (rogue, avenger, whatever) has been a problem in any of our games, but I guess it just disturbs me that the possibility is there, seeing how, frequent crits (as well as overdue crits) tend to change the flow of an encounter.
renau1g
First Post
Twin is certainly the premier at-will in the game. I can't really think of a good balance mechanism to bring it closer in power level to other powers. Perhaps impose a -2 penalty on the attacks would help somewhat (like rapid shot (or whatever it was called from 3e)), but now we're into houserule territory.
There have been numerous house rules proposed, such as getting the second attack only on a miss, only on a hit, penalty to both attacks, making the damage [W1]+[W2] if both attacks hit same target, etc.
As long as the static damage/vulnerabilities are reigned in a bit, twin strike is not too bad in the hands of the ranger only. It does however become problematic in the hands of anyone else, it's their schtick, and I'm fine with them doing it well. Perhaps a requirement could be added to twin strike, such as "requirement: must have a ranger fighting style".
Sorry for getting a bit off topic, back on daggermaster, another thing I forgot to mention is, the swordmage daggermaster. With whitelotus/assault, or giant swordbursts, you again have a chance to crit right and left every couple rounds. If you're a gnome, you're not even giving up that much base damage using a dagger instead of shortsword.
UngeheuerLich
Legend
In the end, twin strike should have been the ranger damage mechanic... but it is really off topic...
neither daggermaster, nor twin strike is inherently broken. It is just a bit better if you invest heavily n this build and a simple resist all reduces twin striking ranger damage output by quite a bit.
I though agree, that a sorcerer with daggermaster is indeed a little bit broken, as mentioned above, and at least a restriction to weapon only powers seems reasonable. A different approach would be daggermaster to require ROGUE WEAPON TALENT. Simple and effective. A multiclassed rogue or half elf can do some good things, but it will be ok for the most part....
neither daggermaster, nor twin strike is inherently broken. It is just a bit better if you invest heavily n this build and a simple resist all reduces twin striking ranger damage output by quite a bit.
I though agree, that a sorcerer with daggermaster is indeed a little bit broken, as mentioned above, and at least a restriction to weapon only powers seems reasonable. A different approach would be daggermaster to require ROGUE WEAPON TALENT. Simple and effective. A multiclassed rogue or half elf can do some good things, but it will be ok for the most part....
One way my play group works around twin strike and various other problems is with the 'critical fail' rule. We rule that a natural 1 is deemed critical fail in which you end your turn immediately. This discourages a player from abusing twin strike in that a 1 on the first roll does not allow the 2nd to happen and there is an equal chance of rolling a 1 to a 20 pre crit range changes.
Dannager
First Post
This house rule doesn't strike you as unnecessarily punitive towards controllers (with multi-target AoEs) while mattering very little to single-target, high-damage characters?
dariuslee86
First Post
Daggermaster isnt broken with Rogues. It's broken with multiclassing especially with the wraith weapon offhand and a viscious main hand. I had an avenger that at level 15 would only would hit for 17 average damage at will and then blow up for 150-200 30% of the time.
Well our table sits 7 so to speed up rounds we also play one roll to attack for AoE attacks (Not mutle i.e One or Two Target attacks). It still balances out in the end, usually your hitting mutliples of similar defenses so to hit one and you hit all or most. Miss one and you likely miss them all. It also made more sense to us RP wise. Why would a fire ball be hotter here, then colder further down, than hottr again?
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