May Daggermaster Nerf Rumour

[keterys]

Pit fighter bonus to damage at 1/turn and it'd be pretty under control.

 

[BobTheNob]

Wow. I came into this thread expecting another round of people trying to argue that daggermasters (and pitfighters e.t.c) are not unbalanced! Yet here are some very reasonable points.

From this thread and Wotc Errata, I am getting the feeling that most are appreciating that multi-class paragons, whilst interesting and sometimes fun, are nearly always at the heart of rule abuse, and holes have to be plugged, rather than simply eternally saying "Its in the rules, so I should be able to do it!".

Cant wait for next Errata

(p.s. Surpised no-one has mentioned the Radiant Servant....that pp is just brutal!)

 

[mkill]

It could be argued, a reasonable player won't exploit the system to find powerful unintended combos. Alas, this is not the case.

Sorry but that's just ridiculous in both directions. You assume that on one hand, average players know beforehand whether their build is broken or not, yet, there are many players who simply don't have that amount of system mastery. On the other hand, you assume that optimizers can see into the future and can accurately predict what will be nerfed and what won't. The actual game doesn't work like that.

In our group, we've been largely untouched by errata and updates, but it does happen. One was a jagged weapon, that had no save on the ongoing crit damage pre-errata, and the other was a Veteran's Armor. The DM put one in the treasure, and my Ranger used it to attack with Jaws of the Wolf twice in one combat. 80 damage is pretty good for 2nd level... That's when I as a player told the DM that this item was nerfed two or three weeks before.

 

[Istar]

Sorry but that's just ridiculous in both directions. You assume that on one hand, average players know beforehand whether their build is broken or not, yet, there are many players who simply don't have that amount of system mastery. On the other hand, you assume that optimizers can see into the future and can accurately predict what will be nerfed and what won't. The actual game doesn't work like that.

In our group, we've been largely untouched by errata and updates, but it does happen. One was a jagged weapon, that had no save on the ongoing crit damage pre-errata, and the other was a Veteran's Armor. The DM put one in the treasure, and my Ranger used it to attack with Jaws of the Wolf twice in one combat. 80 damage is pretty good for 2nd level... That's when I as a player told the DM that this item was nerfed two or three weeks before.

Maybe no one else thought it was funny

 

[Dice4Hire]

All I need is the word "weapon" in the correct place and I'll be happy.

 

[SabreCat]

I'm looking forward to a Daggermaster nerf. I don't mind optimization, but the ever-popular Sorcerer/Rogue--Daggermaster (of which we have one in the Paragon game I'm playing in) feels like a bug exploit, which irritates me.

 

[Turtlejay]

All I need is the word "weapon" in the correct place and I'll be happy.

Preach on brother, I'm with you 100%!

Jay

 

[BobTheNob]

I'm looking forward to a Daggermaster nerf. I don't mind optimization, but the ever-popular Sorcerer/Rogue--Daggermaster (of which we have one in the Paragon game I'm playing in) feels like a bug exploit, which irritates me.

Every time someone mentions those cheeseball builds, that are RAW legal, stupidly overpowered and make no sense what-so-ever, yet people keep playing them because they are hyper effectivre, I want to vomit.

Excuse me....I feel a little bile coming to my throat...

(p.s. thank god my players play themes rather than numbers. I feel blessed)

 

[Anguirus]

All I need is the word "weapon" in the correct place and I'll be happy.

This. Daggermaster is fine as long as you're made to stick with the d4 for your damage die.

It's never come up yet, but if asked I wouldn't have allowed the Daggermaster Sorcerer in my games. It makes all other options "obsolete" from a hardcore CharOp standpoint because getting 18-20 crits on implement powers is rather good, and it makes no sense to boot.

 

[Mengu]

This. Daggermaster is fine as long as you're made to stick with the d4 for your damage die.

I still maintain that this is not enough. With a number of ways to get multiple attack rolls and other features to add dice to damage, the smaller d4 is largely inconsequential. A half-elf daggermaster with twin strike deals more damage with two attacks using d4's, than a barbarian with a single attack using d12 weapon. The rogue gets crits 27% of the time, while the barbarian at most gets them 10% of the time, more typically 5%.

I believe the increased crit range from Daggermaster should only work on Rogue powers and Daggermaster PP powers. Otherwise, you're still keeping it open to abuse by some other future class.