D&D General Maybe I was ALWAYs playing 4e... even in 2e


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James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
the (encoutner I think) penelty to save based on Orb was DEVISTATING...
Oh Orb of Imposition? Yeah and almost every DM I knew hated it. I might have even got hit by the nerf bat, I can't remember, but I never encountered one in the wild for some reason.. By Orb user, I meant I used the advanced implement (I can't remember the term) that gave me bonuses to psychic damage. Bards have a few of those natively, and if memory serves, the Nethermancer came with some nice ones as well.
 

Undrave

Hero
Because while I'd just run straight into the flaws of 4e in the worst way, I knew it was something that could be fixed if the devs would just work on it!

I recall having a real problem with my Death Priest. I'd invested heavily in Rituals so I'd have answers to any non-combat problem that came along. Right up until we were playing an LFR mod in Calimshan where we needed to cross a desert and I was like "oh, I'll cast this! and then that! oh and phantom steeds!", and the DM looked at me and asked if I could save my residuum because otherwise there wouldn't be any adventure.

Even the adventure designers had given up on pretending the game supported the exploration tier!
It always felt like the 4e Adventurer writers didn't GET the edition and weren't very interested. I don't recall seeing ANY buzz for any 4e adventure the same way the adventure books for 5e have gotten... It felt ike everybody went 'meh' and just pilfered them to build a better version on their own.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Even the adventure designers had given up on pretending the game supported the exploration tier!
That was supposed to be skill challenge arena...
It always felt like the 4e Adventurer writers didn't GET the edition and weren't very interested. I don't recall seeing ANY buzz for any 4e adventure the same way the adventure books for 5e have gotten... It felt ike everybody went 'meh' and just pilfered them to build a better version on their own.
Well that was my opinion of D&D adventures from all the way back.... I probably didnt expect anything else.
 

It always felt like the 4e Adventurer writers didn't GET the edition and weren't very interested. I don't recall seeing ANY buzz for any 4e adventure the same way the adventure books for 5e have gotten... It felt ike everybody went 'meh' and just pilfered them to build a better version on their own.
I owne all the 4e adventures. None really sing to me. (the best was Pyramid of shadows and I can't remember if that was end of heroic or beginning of paragon tier)

the best parts of the adventure path that was H1-E3 were online mods I found (to be fair I also have online mods for every 5e adventure I have) so I agree.
I did this myself... there is a primordial and Orcus is mining it... so to get the players ready I had them in sigil watching the lady of pain. Someone was in her way and the players that new me and old lore expected someone was about to be banished to a shadow maze... but the cloaked figure went on a rant instead about the flesh of a primordial... and they watched as the ghoul king ripped into her and started eating the lady of pain alive,,, becuse he had the power of a primordial in him from his last snack.
needless to say some people should have worn there brown pants that day.
 

That was supposed to be skill challenge arena...
I think this is an example of (and I am about to be critical of my fav edition) half baked cake.

the skill challange system needed work, but if you look at "adventures in middle earth 5e" and mix there hex crawl rules with skill challanges you could have exploration that works. The problem is even that new hybrid would need a few hundred hours of play testing to refine
 


I didnt actually DM till after getting the DMG 2 (I didnt come in during year one) which I felt did a pretty good job with skill challenges. Also included environmental powers and the like.
i was DMing day 1, and I will say that every few months the game improved until about 8-13 months before NEXT was announced. I still feel salty that 5e isn't an improvement on 4e but a backwards look toward 3e with some 4e sprinkles
 

Stalker0

Legend
i was DMing day 1, and I will say that every few months the game improved until about 8-13 months before NEXT was announced. I still feel salty that 5e isn't an improvement on 4e but a backwards look toward 3e with some 4e sprinkles
I think that is not giving 5e enough credit, there's a bit more than just "sprinkles" of 4e in the edition.
  • Ritual casting allowing casts without spell slots.
  • Internal Self Healing through hitdice (healing surges)
  • Short Rest power recovery for many classes.
  • Simplification of grappling using athletics (more similar to how 4e does it)
  • Allowances for attacks utilizing non standard stats (cantrips using casting stat, hexblades using charisma on their attacks, etc)
  • Action Surge maintained through the fighter class.
There's a lot of 4e in the dna of 5e.
 


2e. It's waaaaay more 2e than 3e.
It has SOME 2e but I see more 3e (I don't see hast ageing you a year, 2e,3e,and4e all had different multiclass rules but it is 3e multiclassing in 5e, 2e hp stopped getting HD at level 9 or 10 but 3e took it all the way up... 5e does it like 3e)

i mean 3e 4e and 5e all share the base d20 system (roll d20 add mod compare to DC you want high) that 2e lacks
 

I think that is not giving 5e enough credit, there's a bit more than just "sprinkles" of 4e in the edition.
  • Ritual casting allowing casts without spell slots.
  • Internal Self Healing through hitdice (healing surges)
  • Short Rest power recovery for many classes.
  • Simplification of grappling using athletics (more similar to how 4e does it)
  • Allowances for attacks utilizing non standard stats (cantrips using casting stat, hexblades using charisma on their attacks, etc)
  • Action Surge maintained through the fighter class.
There's a lot of 4e in the dna of 5e.
there is some but caster supremacy lack of martial options most healing coming from spells (and no spell based healing used HD/HS) multi classing and base class design all come from 3e... along with (much it its detriment) the monster design.
 

Aldarc

Legend
I think that is not giving 5e enough credit, there's a bit more than just "sprinkles" of 4e in the edition.
  • Ritual casting allowing casts without spell slots.
  • Internal Self Healing through hitdice (healing surges)
  • Short Rest power recovery for many classes.
  • Simplification of grappling using athletics (more similar to how 4e does it)
  • Allowances for attacks utilizing non standard stats (cantrips using casting stat, hexblades using charisma on their attacks, etc)
  • Action Surge maintained through the fighter class.
There's a lot of 4e in the dna of 5e.
The DNA may be there, but it's in Cronenberg form. Ritual Casting required typically skill checks or sometimes healing surges to use, and they were not locked behind class-specific spell lists. Plus, the fact that many utility spells had been turned to Rituals meant that they couldn't be cast in the middle of combat. Healing Surges operate so differently from HD Healing that I'm not sure where to begin, though @EzekielRaiden is often quick to rant about those differences. Short Rest recovery is being faded out in terms of Proficiency Modifier Per Day mechanics.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
The DNA may be there, but it's in Cronenberg form.
ie its been distorted to no longer perform most of its actual function?
Ritual Casting required typically skill checks or sometimes healing surges to use, and they were not locked behind class-specific spell lists. Plus, the fact that many utility spells had been turned to Rituals meant that they couldn't be cast in the middle of combat. Healing Surges operate so differently from HD Healing that I'm not sure where to begin, though @EzekielRaiden is often quick to rant about those differences. Short Rest recovery is being faded out in terms of Proficiency Modifier Per Day mechanics.
 



James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
That was supposed to be skill challenge arena...

Well that was my opinion of D&D adventures from all the way back.... I probably didnt expect anything else.
Yes I did go and read the adventure, and it is presented as a skill challenge. Unfortunately, what happens when you don't need a skill challenge to overcome obstacles?

This is especially true in 5e, where Background Traits, "Ribbons", and, especially, magic, can obviate the need to make skill checks to overcome challenges. You can't just pretend these options don't exist (unless you've house ruled them out of your game) and say "well, I thought it would be more exciting if everyone made three rounds of skill checks". If nothing else, that breaks immersion.

"Why am I building a shelter when the Wizard can cast Tiny Hut?"

"Best not to ask about these things, the DM looks testy tonight."
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
The DNA may be there, but it's in Cronenberg form. Ritual Casting required typically skill checks or sometimes healing surges to use, and they were not locked behind class-specific spell lists. Plus, the fact that many utility spells had been turned to Rituals meant that they couldn't be cast in the middle of combat. Healing Surges operate so differently from HD Healing that I'm not sure where to begin, though @EzekielRaiden is often quick to rant about those differences. Short Rest recovery is being faded out in terms of Proficiency Modifier Per Day mechanics.
Or just money, in the form of residuum.
 

I think that is not giving 5e enough credit, there's a bit more than just "sprinkles" of 4e in the edition.
  • Ritual casting allowing casts without spell slots.
  • Internal Self Healing through hitdice (healing surges)
  • Short Rest power recovery for many classes.
  • Simplification of grappling using athletics (more similar to how 4e does it)
  • Allowances for attacks utilizing non standard stats (cantrips using casting stat, hexblades using charisma on their attacks, etc)
  • Action Surge maintained through the fighter class.
There's a lot of 4e in the dna of 5e.
As @Aldarc says this is something of a soapbox for me, which I once gave a much more comprehensive analysis of. Can dig up a link but I'd be real surprised if you haven't seen it already. TL;DR on these:

  • Rituals were generically available. Only a short list of Bard-specific rituals broke this rule. One feat, some money, and eight hours could let you learn your choice of 90% or more of the rituals in the game.
  • Surges limit daily healing, provide large chunks of HP, and are reliable. HD are none of these. The two are in fact almost entirely opposed.
  • "Many"? Really? Nah. 5e is mostly LR classes. Because almost all classes are neo-Vancian spellcasters. And 5.5e will be even more LR than it is now.*
  • This is similar but like...grappling has always sucked before, such that no one liked the old way. To stick to that would have been objectively dumb, so changing it doesn't hold much merit in my eyes.
  • ...making it class specific is not at all a similar structure. C'mon man, don't pretend like that's at all in keeping with the spirit of the original.
You also didn't mention cantrips, which are totally at-wills...that only benefit casters.

There's a lot of things in 5e that LOOK LIKE something from 4e. But it's almost always completely different under the skin, often literally serving diametrically opposite goals (the surge vs HD and at-wills vs cantrips examples are perhaps the most prominent here).

5e didn't have to be a perfect copy of 4e to keep the spirit of the rules it ported over. It did not actually do much of anything to keep the spirit of 4e's rules, even in places where it could have without much difficulty.

*The irony being that, if 5.5e does put everyone on the LR base, then it would actually become MORE like 4e, not less. Because then we could actually start getting some resource balancing going.
 

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