D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

[Neonchameleon]

Can I ask how all three of these sentences can be true at the same time?

The rogue should be better at skills than a fighter - but the fighter should be better at skills than any character with cantrips. Fixing the fighter's skills was good - but the rogue also needs their non-combat buffed to prevent the fighter overtaking them.

 

[tetrasodium]

Easy. I'll answer for him.

WOTC screwed up. They built fifth edition around full encounter spotlight stealing and the wrong amount of encounters per day.

The Fighter is a warrior
The Rogue is an expert

In Combat with appropriate # of encounters: Warriors >Experts, Mages, and Priests

In Out of Combat with appropriate # of encounters:: Mages, and Priests >Experts >>>>>>Warriors

I'd extend that by saying they focused too much on making a game where 3-5 individual players each play a single PC who expects to be some "special chosen one" type protagonist rather than putting more weight on the party of those 3-5 PCs combined as a whole being special. It really hurt classes that are intended to be an important part of that party that others could work with when they focused the game so much on inappropriate levels of combat and provided so much risk mitigation that DPR was almost the only important factor in combat.

 

[Vaalingrade]

The only d&d TTRPG rogue was only high damage in 4E

Before 4e, in D&D and many other fantasy RPG before 2010, warriors outdamaged rogues. Even in 3e. Damage was the only reason to bring a fighter over a CODzilla.

I'd like you to introduce my titular 3e rogue who casually did 1d10+5d6 slashing and piercing plus 1d4 DEX damage on sneak with the bastard sword* he was allowed to use with sneak vs the sad 2d6+1.5STR the fighter was struggling to do.

And this is before enchanting the Last Kiss to Merciful, which means the fighter's job is coup de gracing all the knocked out guys in my wake.

 

[ECMO3]

What do rogue character players want?

Well presumably they want what the class offers or they would be playing another class.

A common theme on these boards is players hating the mechanics of the class they choose to play. This just blows my mind. To me this is like saying "I hate the color yellow and I wish it looked like the color blue" and then going out and walking past a bunch of blue dresses to buy a yellow dress, then complaining that it isn't blue..

High damage PC options exist. High damage and sneaky PC options exist. The Rogue isn't and shouldn't be one of those.

 

[James Gasik]

Flag on the play. You have switched in "warrior" for fighter. Rogues, like The Grey Mouser, have always been warriors.

And we know that two weapon fighters have been buffed thanks to the Nick property meaning that you can attack with your offhand action and Cunning Action, Hunter's Mark, or Second Wind. And Vex helps Rogues a lot.

He was both, if you want to be pedantic about it.

 

[ECMO3]

Yes, why EVER would D&D players want to emulate the vast majority of fiction protagonists when they could be playing nobodies who throw themselves into endless meatgrinders to eventually earn third level maybe a name? (not as in reputation, as in "Well, fighter #14 made it third, lets name him a real name now.)

Well in part because it is a team game which makes it impossible to have "a chosen one" when there are 4 or more players.

This is why I think the current class imbalance works in favor of the game. By mixing powerful classes with weaker classes and adding in rolling for abilities you can easily end up with a "chosen one" in the party. This makes the story better with there being a chosen one and a bunch of supporters.

That Luke, Han, and Leia should have just been a random farmboy, smuggler, and senator rather than have destinies tied to the most powerful villains in galaxy.

But Luke was the chosen one in this example and Leia and Han were not really big in the same sort of fashion.

I mean they helped out, but Luke blew up the deathstar, Luke defeated the Rankor and largely rescued them all from Jabba, Luke defeated Vader in combat and restored balance to the force.

 

[ECMO3]

In Out of Combat with appropriate # of encounters:: Mages, and Priests >Experts >>>>>>Warriors

I don't think this is necessarily true. How effective Warriors are out of combat is highly dependant on how they built their character. I think a lot of warriors invest only in combat, in particular by taking a high Constition and when they do that this is true ---> They are the best in combat givien an appropriate number of encounters and very poor out of combat.

By accepting a lower Constitution and prioritizing out of combat abilities Warriors can substantially improve their out of combat capabilities while still being effective in combat.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Well in part because it is a team game which makes it impossible to have "a chosen one" when there are 4 or more players.

This is why I think the current class imbalance works in favor of the game. By mixing powerful classes with weaker classes and adding in rolling for abilities you can easily end up with a "chosen one" in the party. This makes the story better with there being a chosen one and a bunch of supporters.

But Luke was the chosen one in this example and Leia and Han were not really big in the same sort of fashion.

I mean they helped out, but Luke blew up the deathstar, Luke defeated the Rankor and largely rescued them all from Jabba, Luke defeated Vadar in combat

personally to me the idea that the inherent design of the game should attempt to produce any sort of 'the chosen one and those other guys' dynamic in a party is rancid.

 

[Vaalingrade]

What do rogue character players want?

Not to have our class reverted 40 years and have all the cool action hero stuff we can do taken away to enhance boring trapspringing/door opening duties for a playstyle that was basically outmoded before we ever started playing.

Also, we don't wan t magic. Let us stab things to death and do sweet backflips without hand jiving and speaking in togues like a robey boy.

 

[Neonchameleon]

whereas some people want their character's achievements to be because of their own hard work and effort, not because they're a nepo-baby of destiny.

it's really really satisfying to win knowing the game was rigged for you all along. /s

And here's me calling a plague on both your houses. I don't believe that people are average, especially thanks to the 10,000 hour thing, and I believe that people who become adventurers are well above average in bravery and drive.

Everyone has small advantages and adventurers are the sort to take them and hone them, whether physical aptitudes, mental aptitudes, or magic.