Maybe this is where the magic went...(Forked Thread: Where Has All the Magic Gone?)

[Rechan]

What about in a campaign where there are no magic shops? I myself hate the idea of just being able to go in and buy a magic sword or shield right off the shelf, pre-made to order; capitalism is all well and good in the real world, but this is a fantasy setting.

While I agree that I detest the notion of purchasing magical items at the magic shop...

Even if you don't have magical shops, that doesn't remove the notion of purchasing and selling magical items. Magical items are important, potent things. Surely there is someone out there, in the game world, that would buy an item the PCs find in a dungeon, and in return give them cash.

So the PCs take that cash, and make the magical item themselves.

Thus, even though you have no building with "Magic Mart" on the outside, you still have a supply and demand dynamic that PCs will exploit.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Forked from: Where Has All the Magic Gone?

This discussion leaves me wondering-how many magic items do you see anymore that are not related to combat in some way?

I mean, if you look at the old 1E DMG and Unearthed Arcana, you have weird stuff like a Decanter of Endless Water (basically a limitless supply of water), a Zagyg's Flowing Flagon (that allows you to conjure up alcohol of varying levels of strength), a Rod of Splendor (gives a charisma boost, and allows the user to either summon fancy furs and jewelry to make themselves look rich, or even summon up a tent and pavilion full of food), Boots of the North (that protect their wearer from the cold and allow him or her to alter their tracks), a Ring of Sustenance (the wearer doesn't need food or water, and a minimum of sleep), a Wind Fan (the user can summon up gusts of wind), a Lyre of Building (allows you to play music that magically constructs buildings), and so on. One 2E Forgotten Realms module I read gave us the Keychain of Domestic Propriety, basically a handy tool that servants can use to get their cleaning duties done more efficiently.

All of these things would be rather useless to most adventurers in combat, but potentially creative players could find any number of uses for them (like using the Wind Fan to blow away the poisonous gas from a dungeon trap, for instance). How many items of this nature do we see in 3E equipment lists or sourcebooks? Again, even if these items aren't much use for an adventurer when he's fighting for his life against a roper, they add a certain amount of depth to the setting and flesh it out a little more.

Again, is it a lack of these kinds of items that some see as a problem, in essence that most of the magic items we see nowadays are ones that involve combat or dealing damage? Enterprising DMs and players could, I'm sure, find creative uses for items that don't require you to stab someone with them, or spit out great balls of fire.

In short-has the emphasis shifted to magical items that simply focus on doing as much damage as possible?

Just a thought-any feedback is welcome.

I blame fantasy literature. Why don´t the protagonists of novels use more, say, bags of tricks to throw rabbits down trousers to further the story? Instead they just use magic weapons and stuff all the time.
Now, thinking about it, i blame Elric.

And it´s good this didnt turn into an edition war.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

While I agree that I detest the notion of purchasing magical items at the magic shop...

Even if you don't have magical shops, that doesn't remove the notion of purchasing and selling magical items. Magical items are important, potent things. Surely there is someone out there, in the game world, that would buy an item the PCs find in a dungeon, and in return give them cash.

So the PCs take that cash, and make the magical item themselves.

Thus, even though you have no building with "Magic Mart" on the outside, you still have a supply and demand dynamic that PCs will exploit.

Oh, that's fine. If most of the PCs have to make do with non-magical weapons, it only makes sense that they buy things like Oil of Impact or Oil of Sharpness to temporarily enchant their weapons when they run into things like perytons or gargoyles. Again, selling things like potions or oils, and the very occasional charged magic wand or even staff, are all fine. Such things could be purchased at the wizard's guildhall or the local temple.

And I never meant to say that something like a decanter of endless water couldn't be used in combat-the 2E Monstrous Manual notes that using a decanter to hose down a desert troll, for example, causes 25 points of damage right off the bat and requires the troll to make its saving throw or die. Another monster that might be harmed by water could also be drenched in that way. How do you know, for example, that white puddings won't freeze when you drench them in a large supply of water?

If, again, your enemies are using something like a cloudkill or sleeping gas on you, your wind fan could be used to blow the smoke right back in their faces, and leaving them to suffer the same fates they intended for you.

And, again, let me point out that the Zagyg's Flowing Flagon could be used to get those hill giants drunk before you attack them. If PCs have to suffer penalties to their attack rolls and AC when they're wasted, why shouldn't giants suffer the same fate?

 

[Rechan]

Oh, that's fine. If most of the PCs have to make do with non-magical weapons, it only makes sense that they buy things like Oil of Impact or Oil of Sharpness to temporarily enchant their weapons when they run into things like perytons or gargoyles.

Huh?

I'm talking about selling things like decanters of endless water and other non-essential items to people who would want those things (a city in the desert would pay out the eye for a DoEW), and then spend that money making +3 swords themselves.

Also, the math for 3e requires magical items to even fight anything after a certain point, due to ACs inflating past BAB reaches, damage resistances, etc. There's a reason the christmas tree effect occurred; there was little reason to NOT desire pumping up your AC/Saves/To Hit/Damage.

That, and if you can't buy magical items, there's no use for gold. There's nothing that you can spend your money on that you can use all that cash for.

Hell, this goes back to 1e where Gold = XP.

 

[CruelSummerLord]

Huh?

I'm talking about selling things like decanters of endless water and other non-essential items to people who would want those things (a city in the desert would pay out the eye for a DoEW), and then spend that money making +3 swords themselves.

Also, the math for 3e requires magical items to even fight anything after a certain point, due to ACs inflating past BAB reaches, damage resistances, etc. There's a reason the christmas tree effect occurred; there was little reason to NOT desire pumping up your AC/Saves/To Hit/Damage.

That, and if you can't buy magical items, there's no use for gold. There's nothing that you can spend your money on that you can use all that cash for.

Hell, this goes back to 1e where Gold = XP.

Hence why my ideal game would be a hybrid of all three editions, with the 3E skill system and feats being combined with the 1E attack tables, saving throws and combat system, and the 2E rules for specialized wizards and THACOS.

That was what I truly hated about 3E, the sense that you specifically needed to play with the Christmas tree effect to maintain play balance. I personally couldn't stand it.

And, as I believe I said, if you houserule it so characters can't access most of the magic item-crafting feats until 16th-18th level, that means very few wizards or priests will have any capacity whatsoever to make permanent magical items. Very few PCs would have the chance to reach such a level, and so they can't make the magic items themselves, and there are no wizards of sufficiently high level to make the items for them, the magic items they do have become that much more important.

And that money can have tangible role-playing rewards in getting access to more powerful movers and shakers in the setting, impressing the barmaids, building a player's own keeps or armies, buying new spells and skills, financing causes near and dear to the character's heart (if you're playing the Temple of Elemental Evil module, your players might decide to give a fair amount of their excess coin to fund the construction of the local garrison fort, which can have major ramifications down the road...

Again, a creative approach can be found to divest yourself of that excess coinage, if it's burning a hole in your pouch.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Indeed, unless the DM has made special contingenices and gone through the work of extensively *fine-tuning* his 3.5E, et al campaign to specifically being a *Low-Magic* Campaign, then yes, it is generally true, and a necessity for characters to become essentially "Christmas Trees" with dozens of powerful magic items covering every slot, or else they simply, *mechanically* will not be up to facing and succeeding against the foes that they face as they progress through the levels and rise in power.

As an aside, and not aimed at anyone in particular, but really, I shall make a pointed observation. To wit--

I listen to people bitch about how 3.5E has become *bloated* and groaning under the crushing weight of all of these rules, too many options, hundreds of prestige classes, thousands of spells, hundreds and hundreds of magic items, the *Christmas Tree Effect*, and so on. Thus, the game needs 4E, and the time is right for a new edition, even long overdue.

Now, wait just a damned minute. I call that absolute hypocrisy. I well remember many many people--lets say to generalise, I imagine--these same people--in days not so long ago, where they bitched, and moaned, about how D&D in the new edition (3.0, 3.5) *NEEDED* and that they *WANTED* lots of "flexibility"; lots of "Customization"; Much more "Options", more *Cool Items"; blah, blah, blah.

3.0/3.5 GAVE US ALL OF THAT. Now, somehow, they don't want that, and it's high time for a new edition? How about make up your minds? I mean, damn...the same thing is gonna happen with 4E, because gamers always want more, more, more! Guess what? Eventually, 4E will be "Bloated" with too much everything as well!

Geez.

How about this--it doesn't matter if WOTC puts out 100 books of everything. You don't *NEED* to allow everything into your campaign! I thought that was said more than once in every other book and supplement WOTC has put out over the last 8 or 10 years. It's the DM's responsibility to take their campaign seriously, and continuously craft the campaign so as to maintain their own campaign balance, and not damage the flavour, integrity, or *FUN* of their campaign!

Otherwise, just expect every 5-8 years a new edition of the game, with a whole "new" product-line of books and stuff to buy. You all then shouldn't damn well be whining and bitching about this stuff then.

It just frustrates me that it seems like so many "gamers" are so inconsistent, irresponsible, indecisive, and whining. "X" number of people complain about stuff, for how long? Well, yeah, WOTC is gonna respond to that, naturally, and make a new edition of the game!

Ok. Well, now that I got that off my chest, I shall proceed my friends!

It's partially "gamers" fault for the whole escalation of magic items, the "Christmas Tree" effect, and so on, because they've complained or begged that they wanted more, more, more. Then, it's also partly the fault of the mechanics, because the mechanics require you to be a "Christmas Tree" to be successful. Then, of course, to some degree, at least, it could be argued which came first, the chicken or the egg? Mechanics+Complaints+Mechanics+Complaints, etc, etc. Mechanics are often fashioned in response to new rules and doo-dads, which have been emplaced in response to desires and complaints of the fans, and you just keep on endlessly spiralling.

Thus, much of the *magic* has been sucked or designed or edited out of the game as designers seek to provide things the fans have said over and over that they wanted, and the whole Christmas Tree/Arms Race just keeps on going, and is enmeshed deeper and deeper into the game.

This then, of course, dissatisfies a good number of other fans, as well as DM's in particular, that are now and constantly faced with the ever-present "Christmas Tree Effect" and constant *Arms Race*

I agree, and lament the degeneration of specialness, and mystery, and wonder of magic items, and, as others have aptly pointed out, mechanically, and economically, many of the great items that provided such wonder, just don't keep pace with the larger and higher priority needs of the players within the meta-context of the game. Such items, while on occasion *useful*--are still, nonetheless, of a lower order in value compared to hard armaments.

This really is an enmeshed, constant problem that will not, and cannot, go away. So, what is the solution?

This solution brings me back to some earlier commentary. The solution is the DM must take responsibility for protecting, crafting, and maintaining the fun, balance, and integrity of their campaign. Better sooner, rather than later, my friends. SAY NO TO 90% of the prestige classes. Or all of them, except for 12 or 6 that you carefully select. Same with spells, magic items, feats, and so on. Whatever you have to do. Take control of your campaign, and make it your campaign--and not merely the constant sponge to whatever WOTC markets, *and* everything the players may seemingly demand and cry for.

Do that NOW. Or start a new campaign with the rules, and do it then. Or start a new campaign with 4E, whatever. Point is, the DM must remain in control, and vigilantly craft and maintain his or her campaign.

Otherwise--You and the group will simply be "Going Down The Road To Hell".*


*"Going Down The Road To Hell" is the name of a module I made for my campaign world of Thandor.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[RFisher]

Magical items are important, potent things. Surely there is someone out there, in the game world, that would buy an item the PCs find in a dungeon, and in return give them cash.

Not necessarily. It could be...

The wealthiest don’t have a lot of cash. Their wealth is mostly land. And they generally find their land much more valuable than any magic item.

My standard assumption is that it is far from sure that there is someone out there to buy a magic item. That’s the exception rather than the rule. And even if there is a buyer out there, you’d still have to find them.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

Not necessarily. It could be...

The wealthiest don’t have a lot of cash. Their wealth is mostly land. And they generally find their land much more valuable than any magic item.

My standard assumption is that it is far from sure that there is someone out there to buy a magic item. That’s the exception rather than the rule. And even if there is a buyer out there, you’d still have to find them.

If that fits the goals of the campaign, it is a perfectly viable explanation why selling magic items is hard / impossible. However, there are campaigns where i want my players to sell the times: i want them to get the money, to use the money to build a hq and later influence parts of the campaign world with their money. So there is a... stranger from a strange land that buys their magic items with hard cash. And strangely, some time later all those items turn up in the great bazaar in Sigil. Heh.

In my next campaign, the adventurers will only gain power, not influence: RHoD works better that way. So i´ll use the Residuum solution, and bobs your uncle.

 

[Vocenoctum]

As I've mentioned on that other thread, one of the big reason why the number of non-combat magic items have decreased in recent editions is the increase in the player's ability to trade magic items. Once players can sell items and then easily either buy or make their own items, wacky oddball items that have very narrow non-combat usage becomes "stuff we're selling at the nearest market so I can buy my combat gear."

Every 1st and 2nd edition campaign I have ever seen had buying, selling and trading of magic items.

The difference with 3e on (and, really, we had plenty of non-combat magic items in 3e in my games), is that in previous editions you'd generally get an item that was good enough for you, no need to sell, so money could be blown on other things. Mainly though, 3e's problem was over enflated costs for items. To keep a crystal ball out of the hands of lower level types, they made it worth so much that it wasn't worth keeping it when you got it.

As for the other post about 3e requiring magic items were previous didn't, it sort of completely ignores "requires +3 or better weapon to hit".

 

[Andor]

As I've mentioned on that other thread, one of the big reason why the number of non-combat magic items have decreased in recent editions is the increase in the player's ability to trade magic items. Once players can sell items and then easily either buy or make their own items, wacky oddball items that have very narrow non-combat usage becomes "stuff we're selling at the nearest market so I can buy my combat gear."

Oddly I think it's just the opposite. It used to be that PCs would take a portable hole, a decanter of endless water and a pipes of the sewers and MacGyver their way past 30 pages of combat encounters to get the McGuffin of endless cheeseake and go home to party.

Since the game is now more about combat and less about problem solving they want to reduce the possibility of anyone out-thinking the dungeon and thus avoiding all those thrilling 10X10 rooms with an orc and a pie.

I don't know if I've ever had a PC that wouldn't take a decanter of endless water over any sword you could name. Those things are just so freaking usefull.