D&D 5E (2024) Mearls has some Interesting Ideals about how to fix high level wizards.

[el-remmen]

Oh, don't even get me started on "themed spell lists".

At a minimum, don't publish any subclasses where the mechanics can't support the flavor. Shadow magic is awesome, but it requires, yeah, having actual shadow magic available.

I tried to make an Elementalist subclass for my 5E hack and it was so difficult to create 4 equivalent spell lists for each of the 4 classical elements, that I gave up. I found myself either having to make up a bunch of new spells, or energy swap spells/abilities and not care about if the outcome makes sense if it is a "earth ball" instead of a fireball (for example), and if you know me that is exactly the kind of thing I care about. . . so I gave up.

 

[Mort]

At this point, I hope that's just known. Shadowdark solves so many 5e problems.

If you like a grimmer, grittier and generally more OSR feel to your game - absolutely.

But I tend to prefer higher level play to be the exact opposite of that!

 

[payn]

Id rather the game just be 10 levels, but I dont begrudge folks that like high level play and lots 'o' spells. I find 5E to be on the easy to grok side of things as is.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I tried to make an Elementalist subclass for my 5E hack and it was so difficult to create 4 equivalent spell lists for each of the 4 classical elements, that I gave up. I found myself either having to make up a bunch of new spells, or energy swap spells/abilities and not care about if the outcome makes sense if it is a "earth ball" instead if a fireball (for example), and if you know me that is exactly the kind of thing I care about. . . so I gave up.

not to mention there's no real proper dedicated damage types for wind and earth (or nature), for a game that leans so often on the four elements themeing the fact that they have to cludge whatever damage types they have on hand whenever they do that feels like something they really ought to of considered.

 

[Minigiant]

At this point, I hope that's just known. Shadowdark solves so many 5e problems.

I don't think ending before the problems occurs counts as solving them.

 

[J-H]

Hello I would like to hear more about this, lol.

The campaign log covers over 70 sessions and 130,000 words. Is that sufficient "more"?

 

[Scribe]

I don't think ending before the problems occurs counts as solving them.

 

[mearls]

Hey all! Glad people find the concepts worth talking about. I suspect that the final design will look quite different from this, but you need to start somewhere!

My main goal is to find a way to make high level accessible to people who are put off by the complexity. I ran a fair number of high level games, and I love adding a cosmic element to the game.

In terms of these specific mechanics, there are a few things I had in mind.

I’d really like to create a design that keeps the PHB spells available, but I think that any attempt to make high level work will require adjustments to the spell list and how some spells work. The shift to an action economy battle (versus HP) really undermines the game.

There’s a chance that adding a capstone progression from level 11+ still inherits too much complexity from the core classes. In that case, I’ll move to creating new classes that start at level 11.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I've always got the impression that this is a problem that solves itself.

Either campaigns end before it reaches high-level, or the players who choose to play wizards that reach high-level are those 1-in-5 that Mike mentioned that actually can handle the load of the large number of spells.

A player who gets confused by all their spell options in a high-level game doesn't remain playing a high-level wizard in a high-level game very long. They either quit or the game goes poorly enough that the DM ends the campaign and starts back at level 1.

This idea that high-level play needs to be fixed in order to get more people to play high-level play to me is just barking up the wrong tree. High-level play just isn't that important. Not so important that we need to make it as easy as we can for more players to be able to play it without getting confused. If players want to play high-level play... they will play high-level play, and learn how to do it effectively. And if they can't? Then they won't. And that's completely okay!

It's like people who ski. Those that want to be able to ski Black Diamond trails will learn how to do it and become proficient enough to ski Black Diamond trails. But there's absolutely zero things wrong with Green Circle and Blue Square trails and most people are perfectly happy to just ski those... especially considering there's nothing inherently better with Black Diamond trails and you aren't missing anything by not skiing them. So why would anyone go out of their way to change how Black Diamond trails work in order to get more people to ski them? That's missing the point of having the different levels of trail in the first place.

 

[Scribe]

It's like people who ski. Those that want to be able to ski Black Diamond trails will learn how to do it and become proficient enough to ski Black Diamond trails. But there's absolutely zero things wrong with Green Circle and Blue Square trails and most people are perfectly happy to just ski those... especially considering there's nothing inherently better with Black Diamond trails and you aren't missing anything by not skiing them. So why would anyone go out of their way to change how Black Diamond trails work in order to get more people to ski them? That's missing the point of having the different levels of trail in the first place.

Oh man do I ever love this.